Revised Site- Please Review

[esco4466]

1) Provide the status of the current website or website to be, and your involvement with it.

I redesigned the site two months ago, but I have been continually been trying to improve it. I am now finished with the home page for good. (I've said that before of course) Some more changes nned to be made to the design of the other HTML pages.

2) Read my list of website design tips:

I have read this list numerous times. I dont understand all of it, by I have made changes accordingly.

3) Tell us about your general proficiency with ...

a) HTML- just started, hack
b) CSS -just started, hack
c) Web standards- don't even know what that means



4) What kind of software tools do you have with which to work, if any?

I use Dreamweaver, Fireworks, and PS3

I work on the site using a Mac and use Firefox and Safari browsers. I am having problems with fonts on different browsers and some color schemes. Tear me up, I need it

site (http://www.hopeworks.us)

[tmreg]

Looks like you have a couple of html pages wrapped around a wordpress blog.

I like it. Looks like you wanted to have a front page that was totally different from what the wordpress was letting you do.

I like that you are using flickr as a picture album. Use tags well and you will get some traffic through it. We have gotten a significant amount of traffic from people finding our flickr account and then linking to us from there.

Wordpress has some cool tools and addons that could probably help you. Use them. Plugins exist to make it easy to add your pictures in your flickr album to posts, add technoratti suggested tags to posts, etc.

The layout of the page looks nice. It could use some polishing but it looks nice and clean. Work on the wordpress theme. It is pretty obvious that it is the default "kubrick" theme with a new header. (and btw the footer is skewed by a pixel or two in IE7). You could probably pretty easily get a theme to match pretty close to what you have going on the front page.

Some things to think about in the future:

The static HTML on the front page must be hard to update. There is a way (using php) to automatically call up the last post in your categories so when a new post is made, the front page is automatically.
Think about a google map instead of a static map in the directions page. (ie http://churchthatcares.org/modules/directions )
If you had any desire to have a church calendar available, there are some cool and easy things you can do with the Google Calendar. The church secretary can easily keep it updated (They keep one anyway I am sure) but it is easy to display current events on your sire through the google calendar rss feeds or the html that the calendar can give you to display the calendars on your site. (ie a current events list via rss feed: http://rezjnr.com / a calendar agenda view on a site: http://churchthatcares.org / a full calendar embedded in a website: http://churchthatcares.org/modules/calendar )Just my $0.02 for whatever that is worth.

[esco4466]

thank you so much. your two cents is worth thousands for me!

any idea on how the php works for auto updating blog posts to the front page?

I would like to better improve the wordpress pages but I kind of like that it is different then the hompe page.

How do I get google map on the site?

than kyou

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[esco4466]

it is not flash, but fireworks

[rePete]

nice site.

You have probably overlooked this: The background color is not set to white. I have firefox default background set to grey so I can check if this is done correctly. If you want to have the site look consistent you may want to change the background.

rePete

[esco4466]

what do you mean? the site looks white in all browsers to me.

[StubbyD]

what do you mean? the site looks white in all browsers to me.
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/DYCKHO%7E1.GRO/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg
If you are using Firefox, then go to Tools | Options | Content | Colours and then set you default background colour to something other than white.

Now load your site.

What you need to do is withing your html editor is locate the bit that allows you to change the "default background colour" and then set that to white.

Alternatively directly edit the source and change the CSS settings that currently point to colour code #999999 and change them to #FFFFFF

Hope this helps?

[David Gillaspey]

Hi Jim,

Here are my thoughts regarding your website. Sorry for the delay in responding.

http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/art/FORUM/hopeworks1.jpg

1a. (Above) When I look at your home page, I don't know where I am supposed to look! Too many graphic elements on the page attract my eyes:

* the logo at top left,
* the heavy type just below the logo
* the photo slideshow in the center
* the grouped photos in the righthand column.

They're all competing for attention. You'll want to give some consideration to that.

1b. You don't have a banner. Yes, I know there are elements in the area where the banner usually is — the logo on the left, the links on the right — but two graphic elements separated from each other by such space do not appear to belong together. (That's the "Gestalt" principle.) They need to be made to appear to below together.

1c. You need a banner, and a solid one.

The reason is that with this style of layout, which has many variations, the banner is the foundation of the layout. (I know that seems odd, since foundations are usually at the bottom of everything else, but bear with me.) The banner holds the layout together.

(You do have a banner on your inside pages.)

1d. In addition to (and somewhat because of) having no banner, the layout has a whole appears disorganized. The main reason for this is the "uncontained" white space at lower left and lower right.


http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/art/FORUM/hopeworks2.jpg

1e. (Above) Above, then, is how the home page could look if:

a) you solidified the banner, and
b) you put boxes around the entire site and around the sections shown. (I'm using red for emphasis, but I'm not necessarily suggesting the use of red boxes.)

For the banner area, even the simple addition of color with no other added elements results in there being a banner. However, I would encourage you to use the space wisely, by adding photos of people and/or nature but not building photos. It's also a good place to put contact information (church address and phone number) and/or service times.

Some people will respond that now it looks like a template, but you overcome that by what you do with banner and the rest of the page.


http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/art/FORUM/hopeworks3.jpg

2. (Above) Consider reducing the number of items in the bottom center area of the layout to reduce the overall depth. I'm leery of designs that result in huge amounts of white space at the bottom of left and/or right columns, but it happens. However, by reducing the number of items in the bottom center of your layout (by two, in the above example), you have less white space at the bottom left and right.

You also get a format that's a little more squarer (less vertical). That's not so good, since a vertical composition is more exciting than a squarish composition, all other things being equal. However, it all has to fit in the horizontal format of the computer screen anyway, so making the home page a little less deep may be a good thing (less scrolling down required).

Or — fill those columns! Use the space!

For example, fill the space (in part) with the service times. You want visitors to come to your services, right? Then put the service times right there on the home page.

Turning my attention to other things:

http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/art/FORUM/hopeworks4.jpg

3. The font used for the rollover text (a graphic, actually) in the righthand column is difficult to read. Consider purchasing a bold extra condensed font for this purpose.


http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/art/FORUM/hopeworks5.jpg

4. In this area of the home page, there are links. For example, "N.R.G. Student Ministry @ the Lake" is a link to the full article. But, how would the user know this is a link? Because it's big and there? Sorry, that logic doesn't work. "Upcoming Events - August 10-11," which is right above it, is not a link. All the more reason for me to ask again — how would the user know this is a link?

As you no doubt know, the standard for the web is to make links blue (well, at least, some color) and underline them. Now, we can agree in advance that this would look pretty ugly on your home page. Thus, consider adding instead a little graphic to the right of each these links. The design of the graphic must somehow indicate that the preceding text is a link.

By contrast, the links in the lefthand column and those found (at least on other home pages) in a row horizontally above or below the banner are understood by users to be links. This is because of the context. Thus, underlining such links as those is not considered to be necessary.


http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/art/FORUM/hopeworks6.jpg

5. I suggest adding the church address and contact information to this area of the home page (well, actually, all pages). Don't make it so light.

As above, why make visitors search all over the site trying to find your church address and phone number?

Having reviewed 14,000 church websites to date, I can tell you that churches put their address and contact information on any of the following inside pages:

* the Service Times pages
* the Contact Us page
* the Location page
* the About Us page
* somewhere else

So don't think for a moment that a visitor "knows" where to find your church location on an inside page. Until and unless churches around the world get together and decide that church addresses will always be found on the same inside page on all church websites, e.g., Contact Us, — such a meeting will never happen, of course — then churches should put their address and contact information on the home page where it's easy to find.


http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/art/FORUM/hopeworks7.jpg

6. Looking at the source code of your home page, I see that it contains numerous instances of "undefined [something]." These need to be cleaned up here and on other pages if applicable.


http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/art/FORUM/hopeworks8.jpg

7. (Above) Comments about these links:

a) When I position my mouse over each of these links, and pause a second, then a little yellow box appears under the cursor with some text in it. (I think these are called tool tips; I cannot display them in a screen shot with the Mac's built-in screen capture.) In most cases, the tool tips say the same thing as the link text itself — which is not particularly helpful to the user.

Moreover, the tool tip for "Give" and "Feeds" is the same: "Contact," which isn't correct.

And, where is your Contact Us page?

b) The "High School" link takes the user to a separate site that loads in a new window/tab. Don't mix links to internal pages and external sites without informing the user in advance in some way. Consider the blind person: how would she know that she just went to external site that loaded in a new window/tab? I'm not blind, and it took me by surprise.

By the way, take a look at the home page of the high school ministry site. What's there that says, "This is a high school ministry site"? Nothing. Church insiders will know that "N.R.G. - Nothing Replaces God" (in the banner) is the name of your youth ministry. (I guess that's the case.) How about giving the rest of us a clue that this is a high school ministry site?

http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/art/FORUM/hopeworks9.jpg

c) (Above) No doubt the Ministries page is "in progress," but at the moment, it looks terrible. Sorry to be so blunt. Centering things like that is not a good idea.

The Feeds page (not shown) has the same problem.

d) Pastor's Blog page and Events/News pages do not have links in the body of the page back to home page, that I could see. The other pages do. There is a Home link in the banner on all the pages, to be sure. But, if you're going to put links back to the home page in the body of the page, do this consistently for all inside pages/sections, or not at all.

e) The first page of the Give page is pretty barebones — some text and a single field to enter a dollar amount. So ... what happens next? You need to explain to the user what will happen on the following pages.

And on the next page, I see that my test donation of US$35 is in my "shopping cart." Sorry, but that's a completely wrong paradigm for contributions, in my opinion. Shopping carts — physical or online — are for buying products, not giving money.

Since you're using a content management system, check to see if someone hasn't created a module, plugin, or extension that handles contributions better.

OK, those are my thoughts for now.

[esco4466]

David,

Thank you so much for the in-depth critique. You were too nice. I made some changes today.


created a header. probably not what you were hoping for it still needs some work but I like the simplicity. let me know what you think.
created some borders. I am still not sure about bordering everything. I will try some different things and see what I like.
changed the color of the links in the main body area to better identify them as links.
shortened the length of the main body, ie less blog links
added a contact us link in the banner (although the Get To Know Us link to the left is the same thing)
tried to move down a little bit the pictures on the right to create some breathing room for the eyes ( can eyes breathe? Nuke Laloosh from Bull Durham thinks so)
I am in the process of fixing the agreeably horrible ministires and feeds page.What about the current series page? I have tinkered with it a few times. I am just not getting what I want out of it. Any ideas? Also I would like to find a theme in Wordpress that I could tinker with to make it look more like the Home Page.

Again thank you so much. I would like to be a more active member on the forum in helping people but I am way out of my league still.

[flutem3]

"I would like to be a more active member on the forum in helping people but I am way out of my league still."

Hi, Jim,

I don't know a lot, more than I did though, but I post here all the time. It is a wonderful place to come when you are not experienced. And it is good to read all of the threads so that you can learn what others are doing. I didn't know anything at all when I signed up on this forum. I just continued...and once in awhile I can contribute. One other thing I can do is to watch for people who are very new...really new who feel overwhelmed by the information on some of the posts. I get in touch with them one and one and can usually help them, or find help for them.

And this is the best place in the world to ask questions. My latest one has not been answered yet...the one about navigation menus...but it will be sooner or later. I don't need it immediately, but I will before long.

Make use of the resources here. That is why David, forum administrator, put the thing up and is so active in its use. He wants to help us become better website editors. He has developed a wonderful website ministry. And he continues his education and makes his knowledge available to us when he has the opportunity. He has a website about graphic design. I have lost the URL, but perhaps, David, you would send it again?

You may not think that you have anything to offer. We all do in our own ways. One of the things I can do without technical ability of any kind is to write this kind and letter encouraging you to take full advantage of the human resources on here. That is why we are here. You will find that you have something to offer as well. It already sounds as if you are a very nice person. I can feel it in the "body language" in your post. :)

Carol

[JackWolfgang]

any idea on how the php works for auto updating blog posts to the front page?

You can make another iteration of the WordPress loop to pull the posts you want.

Edit: In fact, I showed code for this (albiet, requiring a plugin) on this forum: http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3925&postcount=17

I would like to better improve the wordpress pages but I kind of like that it is different then the hompe page.

You can use a different home page template in WordPress, and the new option (in 2.1+ if I recall correctly) allows you to have a page as your front page.

How do I get google map on the site?

With MyMaps or Mapplets, I don't know. But the Google Maps API (http://www.google.com/apis/maps/) is publicly available.

[JackWolfgang]

There is one other thing that I really don't understand about the site, and it's the "Welcome to Fabulous Hopeworks" sign. You've taken the famous "Welcome to Fabulous Las Vegas" sign and made it your church's. But it doesn't make me want to go to your church because Vegas doesn't make me think of church, it makes me think of Sodom and Gomorrah.

If you were Central Christian Church of Las Vegas, I could understand using the sign, but your church is in Fort Worth. Why not a lasso around "Ride on into Hopeworks, where you'll be welcome"?

[JackWolfgang]

Clarenece mentioned the HTML validator and I am going to hit it again.

It seems to me that it's a shame to build a site in Wordpress, which prides itself on building standards-compliant code, only to have a number of validation errors on the site.

Validation Results for Hopeworks (http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hopeworks.us%2F)

The Web Developer Toolbar for Firefox also includes a toolbar that displays a pages' validations status for both CSS and HTML.

[esco4466]

The wordpress part of the site is validated. It is the HTML pages that are not. I am working to fix many of the errors which were caused by two fireworks html generated codes.

I will check out that code for generating posts on the home page. thank you

We dont mind the Vegas/Hope Works sign. A sign is just a sign. Its recognizable and unique (to churches anyway) it wont be there forever but it caught your eye didn't it?

Thank you for your help. Please continue.

[flutem3]

"We dont mind the Vegas/Hope Works sign. A sign is just a sign. Its recognizable and unique (to churches anyway) it wont be there forever but it caught your eye didn't it?"

Hi, Jim,

I wondered about the sign as well. But you are right about one thing. It certainly did catch my eye, and I probably spent more time of the page because of it. Good job in my opinion of catching my eye.

I too think there is probably a sign which is more appropriate, using the term loosely, but I doubt that it would catch the eye like the one you used.

Everyone talks about having a focal point for a page. Yours certainly does a good job of that!!

Carol

[flutem3]

ATTENTION TO THOSE WHO CRITIQUE, INCLUDING ME WHO JUST TENDS TO BE CRITICAL

A critique, whether it is of a website, a play, musical performance, etc. includes what can be improved; but it also includes:

What you like that is good on the website...speaking for myself, I sometimes do not recognize that either.
Include why the element/s is/are good, appealing etc.
What makes a site look updated instead of "out of style"
What could make the element even betterAny critique of quality does not neglect the positive elements of the work which is being analyzed.

What I have noticed here is that we tend to "pick" at certain kinds of things instead of taking a really solid over-all view.

Anyway, I would find this information useful...and I have a feeling that others might as well.

Carol

[David Gillaspey]

There is one other thing that I really don't understand about the site, and it's the "Welcome to Fabulous Hopeworks" sign. You've taken the famous "Welcome to Fabulous Las Vegas" sign and made it your church's. Hi Jack (and Jim),

Can't say that I agree with you. I didn't recognize the sign, so I'm not sure it's so "famous." Moreover, the people for whom the sign is most recognizable — people who have spent a lot of time gambling in Las Vegas — are the very people who need to hear the Gospel and who need to know about a church in their neighborhood.

It's also only one of four images.

I have a bigger problem with the "Application for Employment" image. I thought this was not a good place to list job openings in the church, then I remembered it's an illustration for a sermon. The thumbnail version omits that clarifying verbiage.

[esco4466]

Man, ya'll are a big help.

here (http://www.hopeworks.us/indexbeta.html)are some of the changes

I am tinkering with a banner. I am having a problem matching a header image color via PS3 with a background header color in Dreamweaver, why?

I moved the links column to the left, not sure if I like it but wanted to see what ya'll thought. Perhaps it is easier to focus, I dont know. It seems pretty universal to have the links at the left.

if you want to compare it to the orignal site click here (http://www.hopeworks.us)

[flutem3]

"I didn't recognize the sign, so I'm not sure it's so "famous."

Hi, David,

It is a famous sign alright. Maybe you aren't old enough to remember it. :D

But I am.

Carol

[generalhavok]

I'm that old.

[flutem3]

:D

Carol

[David Gillaspey]

David,

Thank you so much for the in-depth critique. You were too nice. I made some changes today.Hi Jim,

Believe me, I wasn't trying to be nice. :)

Home page is much improved.

The banner looks a little better. Part of that is the addition of a third link. Also, I'm now seeing a little gray band under the heavy rule at the very top, but maybe it was there before.

The eye scans a home page from the top left to the middle right and on around in a clockwise circle. (This is only true of cultures that read left to right, top to bottom, of course.) By swapping the main menu (formerly the lefthand column) and photo gallery (formerly the righthand column), you intentionally or unintentionally created a home page that works perfectly in this respect. Everything seems more balanced and natural now. The graphic elements no longer fight the eye's natural pattern of movement.

The boxes are better. Just extend the boxes around the left and right columns all the way to the bottom. Let the boxes enclose the extra white space in these columns.

I did not check the Current Series page because there was no indication in the original layout, or the current, that this link was anything special. Thus, you'll want to do something to make it stand out.

On the Current Series page, the illustration for the series is your banner. You'll really want to have a consistent banner throughout the site. A few church websites that I have seen will change the photos in the banner from section to section, but the banner as a whole looks consistent.

I can't emphasize enough how the banner serves as the foundation for the site.

[David Gillaspey]

He has a website about graphic design. I have lost the URL, but perhaps, David, you would send it again?Hi Carol,

It's http://www.discovergraphicdesign.com.

Nothing special at the moment, but I plan to redesign and relaunch it over the next few months. I've just completed a course on Information Design for which a proposal to redesign the site served as my final project. The presentation, in Powerpoint format, can be downloaded from this thread:

http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/forums/showthread.php?t=688

No particular emphasis on website design, however.

[David Gillaspey]

It is a famous sign alright.Good.

The church is parodying the Las Vegas sign. That's perfectly appropriate. Parodies are always of well known people, icons, movies, genres, welcome signs, etc.

[David Gillaspey]

A critique, whether it is of a website, a play, musical performance, etc. includes what can be improved; but it also includes ... [the positive things].Hi Carol,

That may very well be so, but for me, it's a matter of time. My critique of Jim's site took me two hours to write. My critique of Clarence's website (for another thread) took a similar amount of time to write. So, I generally only have time to focus on things that can be improved.

[David Gillaspey]

I am tinkering with a banner. I am having a problem matching a header image color via PS3 with a background header color in Dreamweaver, why?Hi Jim,

There's a couple of possible reasons, but I need more information. Can you give us more information about this? Thanks.

[flutem3]

A critique, whether it is of a website, a play, musical performance, etc. includes what can be improved; but it also includes ... [the positive things].Hi Carol,

That may very well be so, but for me, it's a matter of time. My critique of Jim's site took me two hours to write. My critique of Clarence's website (for another thread) took a similar amount of time to write. So, I generally only have time to focus on things that can be improved.

Hi, David,

For most people whatever they are doing is almost always a matter of time. But it might be worthwhile to spend 15 minutes of the two hours concentrating on the positive so that the critique is not so skewed to the negative. It might enlighten all of us...in more ways than one. :)

Carol

[esco4466]

The reader too, does not have a lot of time. I know what is good about the site, I want to know what isn't.

[esco4466]

David that really means alot to me that you spent so much time on my site. I appreciate it brother

[esco4466]

The banner looks a little better. Part of that is the addition of a third link. Also, I'm now seeing a little gray band under the heavy rule at the very top, but maybe it was there before.

The gray was not there. Nor does it show up much in IE, very frustrating

The eye scans a home page from the top left to the middle right and on around in a clockwise circle. (This is only true of cultures that read left to right, top to bottom, of course.) By swapping the main menu (formerly the lefthand column) and photo gallery (formerly the righthand column), you intentionally or unintentionally created a home page that works perfectly in this respect.

That is all I have- an eye for design, no skill.

I did not check the Current Series page because there was no indication in the original layout, or the current, that this link was anything special. Thus, you'll want to do something to make it stand out.

One of the pictures is a link to the current series as well as the first item in the main body will always be the current series info and link. I will work on that page. What I would like to do is to have a consistent banner throughout but have different pics in the center ala the main page. But I would like for those pics to jut or overlap the banner a bit (check out http://www.journeyon.net/welcome-to-the-journey/ ) iwould make our logo a little smaller (do we even like our logo?) Any idea on how to overlap div s?

[flutem3]

The reader too, does not have a lot of time. I know what is good about the site, I want to know what isn't.

Hi, Jim,

I understand that people have time crunches...at least we think we do. :)

However, that is not the point I wanted to make. You may know what looks good on a website. But I know that one goal on this forum is for people to learn...people of all skill levels.

Someone who is new to web making/design may not know what looks good. Therefore, in order to learn they need to see what looks good, not just what is wrong. And if we are really going to teach them, we will say why it looks good so that the can use the same techniques again instead of stumbling upon them by accident.

Remember, this is just one woman's opinion of this entire situation. But as you can tell, I am one of those people who has learned some but needs to learn a lot more. But for me to learn, it is helpful to see what others have done correctly as well as what needs to be fixed. The whys of both are very important.

Think of your website as a teaching tool for all of us who are on here, and you have it about right. It is a teaching tool.

Thank you for sharing it with us!!

Carol

[David Gillaspey]

Someone who is new to web making/design may not know what looks good. Therefore, in order to learn they need to see what looks good, not just what is wrong. And if we are really going to teach them, we will say why it looks good so that the can use the same techniques again instead of stumbling upon them by accident.Hi Carol,

I understand the point you are trying to make. Thanks for raising the issue.

I will try to mention a few positive things in my reviews in the future, though the focus will still be on the things that need to be corrected, in my opinion.

[flutem3]

Hi, David,

I understand what you are saying...and I do not totally disagree. Thank you for considering my point of view. I appreciate it. And it is an amazing thing...sometimes we can learn a lot from the positive. Nobody will ever know unless we take a crack at it. :D

Carol

[esco4466]

What I would like to do is to have a consistent banner throughout but have different pics in the center ala the main page. But I would like for those pics to jut or overlap the banner a bit (check out http://www.journeyon.net/welcome-to-the-journey/ ) iwould make our logo a little smaller (do we even like our logo?) Any idea on how to overlap div s?

could really use some help on this. anyone got any ideas?

[flutem3]

What I would like to do is to have a consistent banner throughout but have different pics in the center ala the main page. But I would like for those pics to jut or overlap the banner a bit (check out http://www.journeyon.net/welcome-to-the-journey/ ) iwould make our logo a little smaller (do we even like our logo?) Any idea on how to overlap div s?

could really use some help on this. anyone got any ideas?

Hi, Jim,

I have no idea how to do this, but it is a great idea. I could do it with my software, but it is WYSIWYG. Therefore, it is not much use for you. I take it you are coding everything from what you have said. But I do know one thing which may or may not be of use.

If I can do something like that with WYSIWYG software, you better believe there is a way to do it!! Otherwise, it couldn't be done. Can you look at the source code on the other website and learn anything from it? That would be one thing I would do.

Good luck with it! I am going to keep the design in mind...or the possibility of something similar.

Carol

[David Gillaspey]

[INDENT][COLOR=Red]What I would like to do is to have a consistent banner throughout but have different pics in the center ala the main page. But I would like for those pics to jut or overlap the banner a bitOne option is to create a banner and use Fireworks or ImageReady to make a slice in the bottom center. (Fireworks will have to make five other slices around it automatically for this to happen, of course.)

In Fireworks, in the bottom center slice of the banner, put the top quarter inch or half inch of each photo that you want to appear, each on a separate layer.

Then export all the slices to a gif or jpg, including the rest of the banner, with only one section (layer) at bottom center displayed. This gives one complete banner.

Then hide the layer that contains the bottom center slice for one photo, the one that is currently showing. One by one, display each of the other sections of photos, each on a different layer, but always the bottom center slice. Export just that slice, giving it a unique name.

Then, cut off the same amount from the top of each photo.

For each page of the site, you'll have a "different" banner. But in fact, all the images (slices) that make up the banner will be the same (and so won't have to be downloaded every time) except for the bottom center slice, which is the top of the photo that goes in the center of that page. On each page of the site, this is the one IMG SRC for the banner code that will be different.

Alternately, going the CSS route, try a negative top margin for a div that contains the photo in the center of the page.

[esco4466]

it was really easy to do using the negative margin. check it out here (http://www.hopeworks.us/feeds.html) and here (http://www.hopeworks.us/ministries.html)

I wanted the address for other pages to just be for example /ministries instead of /ministries.html so I just made it so the extension was taken off in the name. It works in firefox but not on IE. any one know why?