Before you ask for a review

[David Gillaspey]

Hi all,

As forum administrator, I want to ensure (and will require) that you invest some of your own time in the process of having your church website reviewed. I won't be allowing (from this point forward) posts that look like:

"Hi, please review my website [URL here]. Bye."

though they may have been allowed in the past, and certainly are the norm on most other, similar forums. (This post that you are reading is not a response to any previous post, nor to any previous action by a member.)

When requesting a review, therefore, first do the following:

1) Provide the status of the current website or website to be, and your involvement with it. No "trial balloons" (a phrase taken from the world of American politics). Two or three two sentences.

An example might be, "It's looked the same for 10 years, and the pastor wants it overhauled, but I'm not sure where to begin" or "I'm on the web team of my church and we are considering updating our current site. We'd like suggestions on how it could be improved." This gives us important context.

2) Read my list of website design tips:

www.greatchurchwebsites.org/my_top_25_church_website_design_tips.php (http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/my_top_25_church_website_design_tips.php)

and do a self-evaluation of your church website or beta site. Based on this list of tips, what things need to be changed on, deleted from, or added to your current or proposed site, if any?

It's possible your current site avoids every error mentioned in the list and follows every tip. If so, just state that. One paragraph; do the best you can.

You are not expected to understand all the tips, nor reference every tip in your answer. If there are three or four "biggies"—things that could be improved on your site, or corrected, based upon the information in my list of tips, then just share that with us.

The point of this exercise is to help you discover some of the answers for yourself. That's called "guided learning" and is more effective than our merely telling you to make this change or that change to your site.

3) Tell us about your general proficiency with ...

a) HTML
b) CSS
c) Web standards

One or two sentences. It's possible you may have no familiarity at all with these. That's OK. Just say so. We need this information to tailor our suggestions to your level of proficiency.

4) What kind of software tools do you have with which to work, if any? (Dreamweaver, Frontpage, BBedit, etc., for designing or coding pages; Photoshop, Photoshop Elements, Corel Draw, GIMP, etc, for handling the art).

One or two sentences. You're not expected to have a particular software. I just want to know what you do have.

*****

By answering these questions, you will help me and other members to provide a more effective review of your site.

Finally — be prepared for tough critiques. If you can't take criticism, or are easily offended, then don't ask for a review.

Also, be aware that it might be several days to a week before I post my comments about your site. Other members may and probably will comment sooner, of course.

Thanks in advance.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites
& Forum Administrator

[flutem3]

As forum administrator, I want to ensure (and will require) that you invest some of your own time in the process of having your church website reviewed.

Hi, David,

I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. However, if I remember correctly one of the goals of this website was to help those who are beginners to website building...to mentor them so to speak.

With the requirements that you stated you will scare the people who need the help the most away. Most of us are not yet able to handle tough critiques. We are just barely learning what to do.

Therefore, it seems that you need to be more specific about who is welcome here. There is no beginner that I know of who can answer the questions which you asked. They would not know whether they were following the 70 points or not...no idea. At least I wouldn't have been at all able to do that and still may be be able to.

Had I read what you wrote when I first joined this forum, I would have been long gone. In theory, I agree with what you have said...we do need to invest our time as well. However, no matter how poor the website, somebody has invested time no matter what anyone else thinks.

Hal is a good example. He is 86 years old, and he is trying to do his church's website because another person left. He does not understand the critique you gave of his website. Therefore, I am going to try to explain it. I am not saying that you are wrong. Most of what you said about the site I agree with. I have spent hours with that site. I have yet to figure out just what kind of website editor Blue Host presents, but I can use it.

In my opinion it is necessary to know where a person is coming from in order to critique his/her website. I understand that is what some of your questions are designed to provide you, but ask them in English. That will help.

I think what you are doing is great! But you haven't seen me submit our site for you guys to tear apart...despite my knowing that the information would be useful. I don't want it thrown at me all at once. At this stage of my life, my hide is not so tough as it used to be. Or if it is, I don't feel like having my work squashed.

Critique involves positive as well as negative comments. That is my main difficulty with critique in general...the negatives are there in abundance; the positives are hard to find.

In the meantime, keep up the good work. I am glad more than you will ever know that I found your website and forum. I find great help here.

Bless one and all,

Carol

[David Gillaspey]

Hi Carol,

In response to your concerns:

Regarding question #1: even beginners can tell us about the status of (by which I mean, tell us something about) their church website, since they're obviously involved enough with the site to have been asked or allowed to create one or modify an existing one. (I've changed the phrase "history" to "status.")

Regarding question #2. I don't want to tell people the same thing over and over again. My list of tips codifies (puts in writing) what I've observed from reviewing 14,000 church websites to date. (Most not very good.) There is no right or wrong answer. I just want someone whose website includes animated gifs, for example, to include in their response to this question, "I need to remove the animated gifs."

Learning theory tells us that that will have a longer-lasting effect, and will be more effective, than if I or other members were to simply tell them that. It's a concept called guided learning.

(In a Bible study, as another example, it's less effective to tell someone what a passage says, then to help them to discover the meaning of the passage for themselves.)

If they don't understand one (or any) of the tips, then they won't understand it when I mention it in a review of their website. If a beginner doesn't know what an animated gif is (one of my tips is to not use them), then they won't understand the point when I mention the use of animated gifs in my review of their site, will they?

Regarding question #3: a beginner may simply answer, "I have no experience with any of these." That's important for the rest of us to know; we should tailor our answers to the level of experience and expertise of the person requesting a review. There's no use telling a person who doesn't understand HTML that their site needs to be standards compliant. That's way over their head.

Regarding question #4: This very question has been asked elsewhere on this forum, as a Conversation Starter. The leading web design program is Adobe Dreamweaver. The problem is, those of us who own and use Dreamweaver naturally assume the rest of the world does, too. That's simply not the case. This question actually serves to remind the professionals among the forum members that many people have to rely on simpler tools. Our reviews should be tailored accordingly.

So, I think all four questions are important. I've changed the wording of question 1 to improve it, however. I've added to question #2 to make it less formidable.

Also remember that not everyone who asks for a review is a beginner. I expect that very talented and professional webmasters might also want their church site reviewed.

As for my expectation that even beginners should invest some of their own time in the process of having their site reviewed, I think that's fair and realistic. You yourself, as evidenced by your many posts on the forum, have learned from others but (importantly) have been willing to invest much time in learning things for yourself, for which you are to be commended.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
Forum administrator

[flutem3]

Hi, David,

Well done!! It is always good for people, not just me, to read the rationale of what a person is asking them to do.

You are right, of course. My investment has been considerable, and I would expect someone else's to be as well.

You just needed to say it that way, in my not so humble opinion. Your comments about learning theory are accurate as well as far as I know. Besides it just makes sense that we tend to learn when we are actively engaged in a project. We need to have some kind of personal investment. I am never happier than when I am working on a project.

And we do have some extremely talented and advanced people on here. I am the first to acknowledge that because I have learned so much from all of you.

My main concern was that you not chase beginners way by overwhelming them with requirements. I am perfectly able to tell you or anyone else that I have little to no experience with things. I am comfortable with it.

However, some people are not. And those people perhaps need this forum more than any other people whom you can attract here...those very timid people who are afraid to ask for help.

That was my main concern. The people who are more advanced with see the depth of experience on this forum. It is tremendous...and perhaps to some people it is intimidating. I don't want those people to leave. They have too much to gain by staying here.

Carol :)

[David Gillaspey]

Hi Carol,

Thanks for the feedback ... always welcome.

I've made more changes to my original post, to provide further explanation of what I am requesting and why I am requesting it.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey