Please review my site

[michael]

Any comments welcome!

http://www.fccjenksok.net.tc

[mrbelfry]

Hi Michael

I don't want to be too harsh but in my opinion there are many problems with your site. If I'm looking at your source correctly then it appears you are using a premade template from 2002 and it shows - the code is a mish mash of old techniques and there are a few occasions where you have header tags with no content. It may be the case that you do not have the necessary skills to start from scratch but there are many places where you can get new templates from for nothing.

If you don't want a new template here are somethings you could do: Left align your text. Centred text is really hard to read. You invite me to join you at your church but you don't tell me what time you meet - or even the day. You also need a comma after 'Main Street'. Also the article by your pastor should be text and not an image

This site has a list of 12 top tips - http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/top_12_tips.php - it is definately worth reading them and implementing them.

[michael]

I don't have the money for software to use flash templates. I could start from scratch but the template we have now works fine.

I get the pastors words off of our weekly newsletter which is in pdf. format. I can copy and paste the words off there but the format gets all screwed up.

The welcome note had all that information until we switched to one service then I had to change that information quickly and forgot to put a link. Thank for the reminder!

[tmreg]

Michael,
I applaud your efforts at a web presence for your church.

There are several things you can do to improve on what you have. The thing that strikes me the most is the only picture I could find on the site is a super small mugshot of your pastor and a couple of pictures of your building. Are there people that go there?

There are also several free services out there that could significantly dress up your site. Google Calendars, Flickr.com as a picture gallery, youtube for adding video, free podcasting sites for distributing sermons, blogger or wordpress as a platform is all free and is significantly more powerful than what you are using. The ability for some of these services to get you noticed by search engines will more than pay for your time in learning them. The best part..... No software to buy or cost associated with it.

It looks like you have your domain pointed to a free webspace provided by a web host? How does that work? If it is not free, why have your domain referring to someone else's domain?

Take a look at this site: http://www.thecrossover.com
In my opinion, they have the ultimate poor-man's, no technical expertise website. They take advantage of the easy to use free services out there and have a search engine friendly easy to navigate site. There are certainly things I would add to it, but it is a great effort for a non-web dude making a website.

A couple of specific things:

Add a link for directions. Use a preformatted google maps link or other mapping service. For example, this link will take them directly to a map of your church with options to get directions "to here or from here" http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=308+East+Main+Street,+Jenks,+Ok.+74037+(First+Christian+Church)&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.197878,81.738281&ie=UTF8&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1
Put pictures of people all over the place. Your website is not flashy. It does not have wonderful graphics and it sounds like you don't want to spend the money to be able to do this. That's ok, but you should at least have access to a digital camera. Digital pictures are free. They should be very prominent on on your site. If you don't want to take the pics, at least use a royalty free stock photography site where you can buy great stock photos for a buck a piece.
Make your service times available on the front page.
Get rid of the jargony words (Lectionary?)
Paul's portion- You are wasting all of this text by putting it in a picture. I know you said it comes as a PDF but it was not typed as a pdf. It had to start as something usable (word document, publisher document etc) Talk to him and get him to send you the original document. Search engines have no chance of indexing this text as a picture. My church's site gets tons of hits for someone searching for an off the wall term and it hits on a piece of text that we never thought would drive traffic to the site. If he is updating this weekly, consider formatting it as a weblog. The search engines will treat this much kinder.I hope you are not taking this as destroying your site and hope you are taking this as constructive criticism. You obviously have the desire to improve the site or you wouldn't have come here. In my opinion, you can find free alternatives to the current path you are on that could bring your site out of 1997 and significantly increase your traffic, usability, ability to update it, looks, and "coolness" of your site.

Hope this helps.

Matt

http://ChurchThatCares.org
http://XOOPS.MattRegister.com (Personal Site)

[michael]

I have pictures of the people on my site. On the About Us section Look at the last link "The People" there is a video and a link to a photo gallery.

Copy and Pasting the text off of the Publisher format is not any better either. I copy and paste on to the web page and the words are all messed up and I don't want to spend 15 min. fixing them.

I am using Netscape Composer to create my site. Its not great program since its early 2000's software.

I started creating webpages in October with no experience. Our first website was with forministry. As months progressed I figured out how to create real webpages. So I created that site. I am only 15 years old.

This summer I am going to spend time learning new techniques for creating web pages.

Our church has barely any money so they don't have money to pay for any website stuff. I am looking at other software that will help create webpages.

The link I gave you is a re-direction link from Smartdots.

Lectionary is what it is called so why should I have something else?

[David Gillaspey]

I don't have the money for software to use flash templates. Hi Michael,

mrbelfry merely suggested an up-to-date design template, without mentioning Flash. You can get such templates for Flash, but also for most any other program, including Frontpage or Dreamweaver or an open-source web Content Management System (CMS). In fact, I wouldn't recommend using a Flash template, though including some Flash elements such as in the banner of your site is OK.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[tmreg]

In Ms publisher, there is a way to get the text to a word document. click edit=>"edit in word". Copy and paste from there. That should take care of your formatting issues.

I am not trying to shoot down your site at all. You asked for critiques. All I am saying is that there are easier and free ways to improve. The only software required is a web browser.

the jargony terms generally turn people off (especially non-members of your church).

Like I said, I applaud your effort and think it is a good thing you are doing for your church.

there is value in having a site that is easily readable by search engines. What good is the coolest site in the world if nobody finds it and reads it?

There are significant problems with any WYSIWYG editor. ALL of them. Using some other kind of platform takes care of these without you having to learn how to code. You could have a free, valid, search engine friendly site set up with significantly less effort in updating it than you are using now. take it for what it is worth, I wish you the best of luck.

Matt

http://ChurchThatCares.org (http://churchthatcares.org/)
http://XOOPS.MattRegister.com (http://xoops.mattregister.com/) (Personal Site)

[michael]

Thanks. My pastor does not really have the know how to do a blog or the Word stuff. I do not want to ask anymore of him then I have to so I just make it a picture.

[David Gillaspey]

Hi Michael,

Here are my comments:

1) The design of the home page (and entire site) needs improving in a very specific way. Take a look at my website, Great Church Websites (http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org), which hosts this forum. My website is hardly the best-designed in the world (I wouldn't even include it in my own directory of church websites that I maintain on my site). However, you can see there is a clearly defined banner area across the top, a clearly defined column of content and links on the left, and a clearly defined content area in the middle.

That is the most basic style or pattern of contemporary web design. Some sites also have a clearly defined righthand column (in addition to the lefthand column), and some also have a clearly defined row across the bottom.

By contrast, your site's home page does not have the clearly defined banner across the top or clearly defined lefthand column. There are many ways to accomplish the goal that I'm suggesting, so I'll leave it up to you to figure out a way. I'm just saying that's an important first step you must take to bring you site up to current design standards.

It won't cost you any money, also.

2) I concur with mrbelfry regarding the alignment of text: use left aligned, not centered.

3) You explained to Matt that you do have photos on your site, in a photo gallery.

Three comments about that:

a) Where are the captions? Provide some explanation about the photos to people who are not part of your church body. As a church webmaster, you MUST understand that people are going to come to your church's website who don't ANY familiarity with your church and its members.

b) Putting a photo slide show on your site is not "putting photos on your site" in the sense that Matt was suggesting be done.

c) The slide show includes music — a recording of popular praise song. It's illegal to do that.

4) Looking at the source code of your home page, you have way, way too many <meta> tags.

5) As Matt suggested, two links, "Lectionary" and "The Chalice" use "churchy" words. YOU know what they mean. SOME Christians coming to your site from other parts of the country and world MIGHT know what they mean. (By the way, only a portion of the Protestant Christian world uses the Lectionary, so don't assume that even other Christians know what that term mean.) But non Christians coming to your website will not know what the words mean. Use another term, e.g., "Weekly readings" for Lectionary.

6) On the positive side, you've wisely included the church address at the bottom of all pages. On many church websites, it's hard to find this information.

7) When I follow all the links down the lefthand column, only the About Us page has navigational links across the top. All the other pages do not have navigational links across the top. Be consistent, one way or the other. (And on the About Us page, the Home link under the banner doesn't work.)

8) Read and apply the information found here:

http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/tw_tips.php

9) Register to become a member of my website (US$9.95 / year) to be able to access the database I maintain of the best of church website design. (I'm updating it right now, a process that will take a few weeks to complete.) Too much money? That's the cost of two Big Mac value meals at McDonald's or the cost to see a couple of movies. It's important that you expose yourself to good examples of church website design.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites
(and forum host)

[michael]

I have taken some of your comments into suggestion and I am and have planned to design a new template this summer.

[JackWolfgang]

While I have my own concerns about the site, I'd like to make some recommendations on your concerns:

Copy and Pasting the text off of the Publisher format is not any better either. I copy and paste on to the web page and the words are all messed up and I don't want to spend 15 min. fixing them.

Copying and pasting the text into Notepad first my help with this issue.

I am using Netscape Composer to create my site. Its not great program since its early 2000's software.

Yes, there are much improved software packages, but I tend to support hand-coding, which requires little software other than a text editor and an FTP client (both of which can be had as freeware, low-cost shareware, or part of the operating system). As for image manipulation, GIMP (http://gimp.org/) is an excellent open-source, free program.

I started creating webpages in October with no experience. Our first website was with forministry. As months progressed I figured out how to create real webpages. So I created that site. I am only 15 years old.

This summer I am going to spend time learning new techniques for creating web pages.

You are to be commended for not letting your age stand in the way of contributing to your ministry.

I would recommend the HTMLHelp.com web site for learning HTML and CSS.

Our church has barely any money so they don't have money to pay for any website stuff. I am looking at other software that will help create webpages.

If they will pay for the hosting package and the domain name, you shouldn't be doing too bad.

Lectionary is what it is called so why should I have something else?

Well, we can take the same view and say:

Sermons are called sermons, so why should I call them lessons?

The reason is that we are loosing the church-y language (also known as jargon) so that we might reach people for Christ.

The Apostle Paul put it this way:
[19] For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. [20] To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; [21] to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. [22] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. [23] I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
(I Corinthians 9:19-23, New American Standard)

David is correct about "lectionary". I attend First Christian Church (a Restoration Movement church, however, not Disciples of Christ), and we don't use a lectionary.

[michael]

I have rechecked and I guess my computer was messing up that day, but it doesn't get the words scrambled anymore and I may put it on there as text.

We use a free hosting package from Awardspace.

Thanks for all of your comments. I have made some changes.

[JackWolfgang]

We use a free hosting package from Awardspace.

I would quit doing that as quickly as possible. You never know when the free hosting will decide to pay for itself with ads that are not compatible with ministry.

As for the domain name, it's a bit strange too. The .tc top-level domain makes me want to place your church in the Turks and Caicos, but it's in Oklahoma. Yes, I realize that sometimes, people use the national TLDs for effect, for example, .cc for Christian Churches. But in the case of your church, I can't figure out why you used it. I would research purchasing a domain name along the lines of:

fccjenksok.org
fccjenksok.com
fccjenksok.net
(or all three!)

All of them are available.

[michael]

We use a free hosting package from Awardspace.

fccjenksok.org
fccjenksok.com
fccjenksok.net
(or all three!)

All of them are available.

Those aren't free!

[JackWolfgang]

We use a free hosting package from Awardspace.

fccjenksok.org
fccjenksok.com
fccjenksok.net
(or all three!)

All of them are available.

Those aren't free!

No, they are not, but they also don't say our church is located in the Turks & Caicos Islands.

[flutem3]

Hi, Michael,

I think that we have neglected to welcome you to the forum. So WELCOME!!! We have a very good group of people here.

It is obvious that you have some computer skills...probably more than I do. But just for the record, how long have you been using a computer? What kinds of things have you been using it for before you started doing a website?

How did you become the web site editor for your church site? Did you volunteer, did someone volunteer you? Do you enjoy doing this kind of work on your computer?

Some other questions are important as well:

Who are you building the website for? Or who do you want to read it...your target audience?
Do you have a website committee of some kind, or are you working on your own?
How do receive information to put on the website in a timely fashion?
How do you receive information to take something off the website when the project is finished? (I have a terrible time with this one.)
Have you read any kind of tutorials on building websites, or have you just started and hoped for the best which is how many of us operate?
Have you considered blocking out your website on paper before you build it? The activity helps with organization. I do it but not enough.These are just some basic thoughts I have about building websites. The most important question which needs to be answered, of course, is why are you building a website? Is it because other churches have them? Many times that is the only reason people have to begin with.

In my opinion, content is king on a website. Without it all the wonderful design in the world won't get a person to look at it. Other people will say that interactivity is important. It is...but in my corner of the world, content rules. Form follows function.

I hope you get as much enjoyment from your church website as I get from doing ours!!

Carol

[flutem3]

Hi, Michael,

I forget to mention that the most important attribute that you need to have is patience. Sometimes it takes hours to work something out...not just 15 minutes to fix a problem. You must be willing to give sufficient time to the website to do a job that will be of credit to your pastor, your congregation, the United Methodist Church, and yourself. And in some way it needs to be to the glory of God.

The church website is your church's face to the world. Many people do not think in those terms. They think in terms of a local audience or a regional viewership if they are fortunate. But those who view our websites are global. What we say and do on them does matter a lot. I am working to get my own church to understand that. A website isn't something that is "nice" to do. In this day and age it is essential to do in order to reach people who have never been in a church in their lives. What you are doing is that important!

Many web site editors say that if the website they design can influence one person in a positive way throughout the life of the website, it will have been worth all the work. However, we frequently do not know whether that happens or not. But on Easter God granted me a great gift. I actually met a husband and wife who decided to attend our church only because of something they saw on our website. I had the great pleasure of shaking their hands.

What we do is important whether we ever see the outcome or not. I am just a very fortunate person. May you also be so fortunate!!

Carol

[michael]

Hi, Michael,

I forget to mention that the most important attribute that you need to have is patience. Sometimes it takes hours to work something out...not just 15 minutes to fix a problem. You must be willing to give sufficient time to the website to do a job that will be of credit to your pastor, your congregation, the United Methodist Church, and yourself. And in some way it needs to be to the glory of God.

The church website is your church's face to the world. Many people do not think in those terms. They think in terms of a local audience or a regional viewership if they are fortunate. But those who view our websites are global. What we say and do on them does matter a lot. I am working to get my own church to understand that. A website isn't something that is "nice" to do. In this day and age it is essential to do in order to reach people who have never been in a church in their lives. What you are doing is that important!

Many web site editors say that if the website they design can influence one person in a positive way throughout the life of the website, it will have been worth all the work. However, we frequently do not know whether that happens or not. But on Easter God granted me a great gift. I actually met a husband and wife who decided to attend our church only because of something they saw on our website. I had the great pleasure of shaking their hands.

What we do is important whether we ever see the outcome or not. I am just a very fortunate person. May you also be so fortunate!!

Carol

My church loves our site. We have had 3 or 4 visitors who found the site and decided to attend. I spend 30-45 update the site weekly. It took me a week to get the whole site up and running. Right now am redesign it and it should be up and running by tommorrow. I have alot more time to work on it now that schools out! SCHOOLS OUT FOR SUMMER!

[michael]

Hi, Michael,

I think that we have neglected to welcome you to the forum. So WELCOME!!! We have a very good group of people here.

It is obvious that you have some computer skills...probably more than I do. But just for the record, how long have you been using a computer? What kinds of things have you been using it for before you started doing a website?

How did you become the web site editor for your church site? Did you volunteer, did someone volunteer you? Do you enjoy doing this kind of work on your computer?

Some other questions are important as well:

Who are you building the website for? Or who do you want to read it...your target audience?
Do you have a website committee of some kind, or are you working on your own?
How do receive information to put on the website in a timely fashion?
How do you receive information to take something off the website when the project is finished? (I have a terrible time with this one.)
Have you read any kind of tutorials on building websites, or have you just started and hoped for the best which is how many of us operate?
Have you considered blocking out your website on paper before you build it? The activity helps with organization. I do it but not enough.These are just some basic thoughts I have about building websites. The most important question which needs to be answered, of course, is why are you building a website? Is it because other churches have them? Many times that is the only reason people have to begin with.

In my opinion, content is king on a website. Without it all the wonderful design in the world won't get a person to look at it. Other people will say that interactivity is important. It is...but in my corner of the world, content rules. Form follows function.

I hope you get as much enjoyment from your church website as I get from doing ours!!

Carol

I am the one who started the website. Our church wasn't even thinking of a website until I started building one. It wasn't until my pastor mentioned the website in church before everyone started going to it.

I love being a webmaster.

I am building the website for both Newcomers and the members.

We do not have a website committee.

I recieve the weekly newsletter by E-Mail.

I did not build the website because other church members had them. I built it to let people know we are here and welcome you to our services.
I sometimes recieve info to take something off.

I have read stuff that helped me build this website.

[michael]

I have redone most of my site tonight and will do the rest tomorrow. Its 11:15 and I am sleepy.

[tmreg]

It is looking good, Michael.

[flutem3]

Hi, Michael,

Your experience with a website is very much like mine...except that you are undoubtedly more competent on a computer than I.

Three + years ago I saw a church website for the first time and thought it looked like a neat idea. I called the church and asked the pastor about it. He said, "Oh, we have been thinking about it for three or four years." I think I said something really bright like, "Oh."

Then I began to think about it. After about a month I wondered if I could do such a thing. I had no idea where to begin...so I began looking for free software. I ended up with the Homestead software which had a 30 day free trial. It took me all of 30 days before I decided that maybe I could do it. So I paid for it. And I learned and put it together bit by bit...and learned more as time went by.

I had wonderful resources like UMConnect and this forum which I discovered after I did the website first time around. And I continue to learn. My technical skills are not great, but we do have audio sermons and podcasting of both sermons each Sunday. I had a terrible time getting it...especially podcasting, but I found some good help on UMConnect.

It is wonderful how we learn from one another. I congratulate you for taking on such a responsibility. I can tell by how you are approaching your church website that you understand the responsibility. Good for you!! Just think. You are 15, and I am 66. But we have something very much in common that we could talk about for hours if given the opportunity!! I don't know about you, but I think that is terrific! :D And I am glad the you enjoy working on the website. I do to. I am not able to get out like some people do. The website reconnected me to my own church. Therefore, I am the person who has benefited most from our website.

I hope you continue to enjoy your very special ministry.

Carol

PS What kinds of music do you like?

[mrbelfry]

Hi Michael

It's looking better. I think it is easy for those of us who have been building websites for a while to forget what our first attempts were like. We have to crawl and walk before we run.

I don't want to jump all over it and criticise but I would definately add your postal address to your contacts page.

And what are you doing up at 11.15 at your age? ;-)

[michael]

Hi, Michael,

Your experience with a website is very much like mine...except that you are undoubtedly more competent on a computer than I.

Three + years ago I saw a church website for the first time and thought it looked like a neat idea. I called the church and asked the pastor about it. He said, "Oh, we have been thinking about it for three or four years." I think I said something really bright like, "Oh."

Then I began to think about it. After about a month I wondered if I could do such a thing. I had no idea where to begin...so I began looking for free software. I ended up with the Homestead software which had a 30 day free trial. It took me all of 30 days before I decided that maybe I could do it. So I paid for it. And I learned and put it together bit by bit...and learned more as time went by.

I had wonderful resources like UMConnect and this forum which I discovered after I did the website first time around. And I continue to learn. My technical skills are not great, but we do have audio sermons and podcasting of both sermons each Sunday. I had a terrible time getting it...especially podcasting, but I found some good help on UMConnect.

It is wonderful how we learn from one another. I congratulate you for taking on such a responsibility. I can tell by how you are approaching your church website that you understand the responsibility. Good for you!! Just think. You are 15, and I am 66. But we have something very much in common that we could talk about for hours if given the opportunity!! I don't know about you, but I think that is terrific! :D And I am glad the you enjoy working on the website. I do to. I am not able to get out like some people do. The website reconnected me to my own church. Therefore, I am the person who has benefited most from our website.

I hope you continue to enjoy your very special ministry.

Carol

PS What kinds of music do you like?

Christian Music, Classic Rock, and some Gospel.

[michael]

Hi Michael

It's looking better. I think it is easy for those of us who have been building websites for a while to forget what our first attempts were like. We have to crawl and walk before we run.

I don't want to jump all over it and criticise but I would definately add your postal address to your contacts page.

And what are you doing up at 11.15 at your age? ;-)

Waiting for my pillow to dry!

[ibda12u]

Howdy Michael,

I just wanted to say Hello from Oklahoma :) I'm in Oklahoma City. Kinda nice to see another Okie on here. :)

[michael]

Howdy Michael,

I just wanted to say Hello from Oklahoma :) I'm in Oklahoma City. Kinda nice to see another Okie on here. :)

Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain
And the wavin' wheat can sure smell sweet
When the wind comes right behind the rain.
Oklahoma, Ev'ry night my honey lamb and I
Sit alone and talk and watch a hawk
Makin' lazy circles in the sky.
We know we belong to the land
And the land we belong to is grand!
And when we say
Yeeow! Ayipioeeay!
We're only sayin'
You're doin' fine, Oklahoma!
Oklahoma O.K.

[JackWolfgang]

Hi Michael

It's looking better. I think it is easy for those of us who have been building websites for a while to forget what our first attempts were like. We have to crawl and walk before we run.

Oh dear Lord.....tiled backgrounds....

Although, my brother had a talent for making marbled backgrounds.

Of course, Netscape was in version 3.....