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GuruGreg
Tue., Mar. 7, 2006, 9:53 am
I just wanted to see if I could get some opinions on the redesign I've nearly completed for my church. I'm still adding photos and ironing out some issues with the Pastor's Page, but otherwise it's mostly done. Let me know what you think!

http://www.southpittag.org (http://www.southpittag.org)
rePete
Thu., Mar. 9, 2006, 6:30 pm
Greg,

the site looks good and it validates too! But you probably knew that.

Have you thought about breaking out the css into a seperate document?

What is the advantage to registering? Does it give more access? How is it done?

Inquiring minds want to know.

a fellow A/G member in the midst of a redesign using/learning CSS,
Pete Hanratty
Columbus, OH
xhtml
Fri., Mar. 10, 2006, 6:07 am
Greg;

This is a very nice site - clean and fast loading - like the colors too. The site doesn't valididate, but is easy to fix.

You should make the <!DOCTYPE ...> complete - thus:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

Better yet - go with HTML 4.01 Strict - but you'll have to forget attributes like border="0" and target=, etc.

The incomplete DOCTYPE throws browsers into quirks mode and that can effect your CSS and display.

As previously suggested - move your common CSS and Javascript files to external files - this will decrease page size and rendering times. As presently coded, you have <style> elements that are not inside the <head> element where they should be and one <script> (appears to be common to all pages) between the <head> and <body> - this is causing the pages to be invalid. You can embed <script> elements but they must be inside another element. Styles should always be in the <head> element unless declared inline.

Other errors I see:

Missing alt attributes on some of your images - if the image conveys no meaning just add alt="" otherwise a text replacement for the image should be used.

You can only use an id= once on any page, so if your CSS declaration is required more than once then you need to change it from id #name to class .name. The id's #blockhead #storyhead #storytext #storyend are used more than once on your pages.

Unencoded ampersands such as:
1347767&java=0&security=8154752f&invisible
must be changed to:
1347767&amp;java=0&amp;security=8154752f&amp;invisible

If this code is being generated by a script, then you may not be able to correct that error unless you can modify the script. This is one of the most common errors you'll see on web sites and unfortunately some plug-ins or ready made scripts don't encode ampersands correctly.

Some CSS things I see:
Don't use pt (points) for font sizes - that is applicable to printers only and you'll get some very undesired sizes in some browsers.

Best to use relative font sizes (i.e. font-size: 80%;) rather than px (pixels) so that your users can adjust the font size if necessary. For example in your CSS body declaration you might define the base font size like:
body {font-size:90%;} then define your other elements as larger or smaller percentages based on that - i.e.; h1 {font-size:250%;} h2 {font-size:200%;}, etc.

Fonts are a bear to get the sizes you want without using pixel sizes as different browsers will have different base font sizes although the default in most browsers seems to be 16px (a bit too large for most folks tastes). If you do want to use pixel sizes - then for accessibly you might want to consider allowing your users to load alternate style sheets with a larger and/or smaller font size.

Most developers prefer pixels, but Internet Explorer will not allow you to change font sizes if you use pixels - although the better browsers (Firefox, Opera, etc.) will. I don't think MS plans to fix that problem any time soon.

You've got a really good grasp of CSS overall - way to go!

Not nit-picking here - just pointing out the few items that need to be fixed. It's a really nice web site.

Regards,
Ed
rePete
Fri., Mar. 10, 2006, 8:31 am
Ed,

I must be confused about validation.

If I go to the W3C (http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/) evaluator page and use Greg's site url, I get 'Congratulations your site validates as CSS'. There are lots of warnings but AFAIK that's all they are.

Am I missing a step or are you speaking of a different type of validation? I'm relatively new to this so some education may be in order.

Thanks,
Pete
xhtml
Fri., Mar. 10, 2006, 9:30 am
Pete;

Yep, you're missing the most important step. The W3C HTML Validator is this URL: http://validator.w3.org/

You are validating the CSS only. Most of the CSS warnings you see have to do with not declaring both foreground and background colors, which you "should" always do although I think their CSS validator goes a bit overboard on that (such as background/foreground colors the same - you sometimes need to do that for one reason or another).

Anyway, check the site with the HTML validator and you'll see what I mean. As I stated, most all of the errors I'm seeing are easily fixed.

Ed
GuruGreg
Tue., Mar. 21, 2006, 3:03 pm
Hey guys! I haven't been able to make it back here for a few because I've been in the midst of changing jobs. I'm getting all settled in again, so I have a little free time.

First of all, thanks for your feedback. I know I still have some validation stuff to clean up. I'm still pretty new to CSS, and there are fixes (like the id's vs. classes) that I still need to clean up in my ColdFusion code.

Just to give a quick explanation, but all of the colors on the site are pulled dynamically from a database and can be changed on-the-fly from the admin console, and that is why the style definitions are not in a seperate document. I tried to find a way to limit the size of the style element, so I split it into two parts (one for the main page framework, and then one for the specific page elements being loaded). I know it's not standard protocol, but it seemed to work fine in every browser I tried.

I'll try to address most of these items when I have time though. Thanks for the feedback guys!
Websquad
Wed., Apr. 12, 2006, 7:25 am
I just love your metatag key words on your home page:

<META name="keywords" content="spinach dip, spinach artichoke dip, spinach cheese dip">
GuruGreg
Mon., Apr. 17, 2006, 12:39 pm
Yea...that's a remnant I need to clean up. I copied code that I was using for another site as my framework for the new site, and that's one part that got overlooked.

I've been slow to make updates though because I've been polishing up a platform in ColdFusion for use with the site, blogs and other items. We'll see how it works though.
Faithhb_lutheran
Mon., Apr. 17, 2006, 5:01 pm
Greg,

Just wondering, why you picked coldfusion to program in? Why not PHP or ASP?
GuruGreg
Tue., Apr. 18, 2006, 12:41 pm
I had several reasons for going with ColdFusion:

In my old job (up until a month ago) I was a ColdFusion Developer/MSSQL Database Administrator. I recently took a new (and much less stressful) job as only a MSSQL Database Administrator, but I'm very proficient in ColdFusion development and am a certified CFMX 7 Developer.
I find ColdFusion code to be much more readable than PHP or ASP. PHP is mostly popular because it's free (ColdFusion is too if you know where to look), and ASP was Microsoft's project and was adopted by many for only that reason. I've done some work trying to maintain PHP content management systems or develop new features for them, and I typically find them so maddening that I have little to no interest in working with PHP any more.
ColdFusion's documentation is outstanding.
ColdFusion is also built on the Java platform, which makes writing specialized ColdFusion tags easier with my Java background from school.I may be in the minority, but I just find ColdFusion more suited to my situation. And no, I don't use Dreamweaver for development, but do straight CFML coding.
Faithhb_lutheran
Wed., Apr. 19, 2006, 12:54 am
Greg,

Thought that experience would be the case. I really like Coldfusion (both because of it's java like rules and SGML like style) but unfortunately I have never been able to convince a client to go with it as the cheaper hosts don't usually offer it. That's what I get for working with a bunch of small businesses.
GuruGreg
Wed., Apr. 19, 2006, 9:22 am
Well, I do most of my hosting using OurInternet.us (http://www.ourinternet.us), and have been very happy. They offer the latest version of CFMX, as well as many other tools and supported languages, and their rates are very reasonable and their tech support is very responsive and helpful. I did a lot of searching before settling on them, and I have not been disappointed.
mickmel
Mon., Apr. 24, 2006, 9:02 am
My only thought is to move your the CSS and Java to external files. This isn't for compatibility reasons, but more improved SEO. I know you've explained why you can't, but it doesn't matter - figure it out. External stylesheets can be dynamic, so you can make it work. Getting that stuff out of the top of your page will add more weight (in the eyes of Google) to your real content.

Our rankings jumped rather dramatically after I got that stuff moved off our page and into external files.

Mickey
Websquad
Mon., Apr. 24, 2006, 11:10 am
Our rankings jumped rather dramatically after I got that stuff moved off our page and into external files.Mickey
Sorry to be off topic, but I just looked at your site (for your Marietta church), with particular interest in your church calender. What software do you use? Does it reserve resources as well as time?
mickmel
Mon., Apr. 24, 2006, 11:43 am
Sorry to be off topic, but I just looked at your site (for your Marietta church), with particular interest in your church calender. What software do you use? Does it reserve resources as well as time?
It's a homegrown script. It works well on the site, but it doesn't tie into our main resource scheduler AT ALL. It's kind of a pain.

The cool thing is that I have it so that it ties into the events on the site. When I add an event to the page, it shows up in a bunch of places (including the calendar) automatically.

For example, I added the Walk for Wishes (http://www.mtbethel.org/upcoming480/Walk-for-Wishes) to our Make-A-Wish Foundation (http://www.mtbethel.org/menu432/Make-A-Wish-Foundation) page, but it also shows up:
- On the Cobb County Communities (http://www.mtbethel.org/menu3166/Cobb-County-Communities) page
- The main missions page (http://www.mtbethel.org/menu230/Missions-Ministry)
- The list of upcoming events (http://www.mtbethel.org/allevents.php)
- The calendar (http://www.mtbethel.org/calendar/)

It would also show up on our main front page if I flagged it as such.

I'd still like to tie things into our main calendar a lot better (we use EMS), but that's somewhere down the road.
Websquad
Mon., Apr. 24, 2006, 11:53 am
It looks like the software from EventU may be our best bet. The large Baptist church next door has been using it for several years with great success, as well as several other groups that we know about.

I'm curious: anyone have any negatives toward the EventU scheduling and resouce management package?
GuruGreg
Fri., Apr. 28, 2006, 3:51 pm
Well, my work in my development environment is really coming along and I'm getting up to spec with both my CSS and XHTML compliance. Hopefully, I'll be able to get that all worked out soon!
GuruGreg
Fri., Apr. 28, 2006, 3:57 pm
BTW, MickMel, I love your CGR site. Always a great place to get chords for those 'unique' songs I'll pick out for worship at our church at times.