Cms

[mrbelfry]

For the current church website (www.lighthousecc.co.uk) I attempted to write my own CMS using PHP, MySQL and the Smarty template engine. I didn't get a chance to finish it properly because my Pastor wanted the site live so I do all the backend stuff through phpmyadmin (which interacts with the db) which can be a little fiddly!

I've used mambo (www.mamboserver.com) in the past (www.imagemagazine.co.uk). This can take a little bit of getting used to but it comes with good documentation, is fairly easy to create your own templates, and has good community support. It's free and is a good place to start imho.

I've also dabbled with PHP-Nuke but never did anything serious with it but that has lots of users offering support to each other as well.

[David Gillaspey]

Hi MrBelfry,

The imagemagazine site is nice. I couldn't view your church website, however -- it locks up I.E. on my Macintosh.

But anyway, having had an opportunity to explore the code for phpBB2 (the forum software we were using before switching to vBullentin recently), I have to admire anyone who can write a content management system (for a forum or for a website, as in your case) of their own.

Have you considered Macromedia's Contribute software?

(http://www.macromedia.com/software/contribute/?promoid=home_prod_contribute_082403)

I myself have volunteered (not necessarily wisely, given my workload) to do a website for a pastor in Cameroon, West Africa. For this reason, I've spent some time reviewing the open-source CMS solutions discussed on this site

http://opensourcecms.com/

I initially chose Mambo for the CMS because 1) it is available to be autoinstalled by my hosting company (from a control panel, I mean), and 2) it does seem to be the most highly regarded of the open-source CMS solutions. But upon installing Mambo, I immediately discovered it breaks (the layout renders badly) on I.E. 5.2 on the Macintosh. That's not necessarily a problem for visitors -- most would use I.E. for Windows, or Firefox on either platform, but I could see that developing the site would be made more difficult for me if I used Mambo.

Now I'm trying Xoops (http://www.xoops.org/). Fortunately I found a pdf-formatted "visual introduction" to Xoops on the Xoops website. This has really helped me to grasp the fundamentals of how Xoops works. (The written descriptions of CMS solutions start to sound alike after awhile.)

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[djchuang]

I posted a survey at the ForMinistry eQuip channel (http://www.forministry.com/equip/) a month ago, to see what CMSes church websites were using.

From some sparse responses, I've compiled a list of about 2 dozen at http://www.forministry.com/equip/churchcms.dsp -- of which about 2/3 use ForMinistry WebBuilder, and 1/3 use their own custom-built CMS or by-hand.

The response is more indicative of who regularly or occasionally visits the eQuip channel, than a reflection of the "market".

[David Gillaspey]

Thanks, DJ, for your list.

I myself have been keeping track of CMS solutions I've seen in use as I researched church websites. That list is here:

http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/content_management.php

With a handful of exceptions, every CMS listed on this page I've seen in actual use by a church. The exceptions are the few CMS solutions that I added at the request of the vendor, which I'm always pleased to do.

The list does not give any indication of popularity, however, but I can confirm that ForMinistry is by far the most popular proprietary CMS system in use by churches.

I used to list open-source solutions on this webpage, too, but I've dropped that because another website -- http://opensourcecms.com/, to which I've linked -- adequately covers that topic.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[mrbelfry]

David: Oops - I've never been able to test the church site on a mac so thanks for letting me now that it isn't working. I'm starting to redesign the site so I'll keep an eye on any mac issues that crop up. I've used a css layout on that site which is why there might be problems (I didn't use all the hacks!)

I like the idea of contribute but not the price tag. I like to work as cheaply as possible so that I can justify my church salary;-) what we save on software we get in expertise (or something like that!).

Have you tried php-nuke - that seemed fairly easy to customise and there are lots of 'plug-ins' for it BUT be careful not all of them are suitable for christian eyes!

My cms system is nowhere near as complicated as phpbb - i wish i could write code like that! All mine does (very, very simply) is drag some content from a db and make a banner rotate! I probably could have saved months by using a pre-built system but I liked the challenge!?!

[JackWolfgang]

I use the old ten finger write it while writing HTML CMS. :)

[David Gillaspey]

Have you tried php-nuke - that seemed fairly easy to customise and there are lots of 'plug-ins' for it BUT be careful not all of them are suitable for christian eyes!

I've studied all the open source CMS solutions discussed on http://opensourcecms.com/. (Twice, actually, a month apart.) All of them, if they have any user comments at all (a few don't), have their champions as well as detractors. In the case of php-nuke, there seems to be much concern about security -- lots of mentions of people's sites being hacked.

I haven't made much progress learning Xoops, however. Been busy with other projects.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[JackWolfgang]

I use the old ten finger write it while writing HTML CMS. :)

Although, I do often end up with an HTML template file that I stick content in and markup the content as I write it.

[djchuang]

(Hope it's not too late to add to this thread, b/c I just found this after the week of the QOTW passed)

One of the up-and-coming initiatives that'll really open this up is http://www.webempoweredchurch.com/ and its associated developers site http://www.webempoweredchurch.org/- using TYPO3 as the open-source CMS system, and fostering collaboration for building modules that can be "plug-and-play" for that system!

dj

[David Gillaspey]

Hi DJ,

Thanks for mentioning the Web Empowered Church initiative.

I was aware of this initiative back in June because of my conversations with Mark Stephenson, Ginghamsburg Church's Director of Cyber Ministry and Technology. (Mark is the lead technical "servant" behind the Web Empowered Church initiative.) I had applied for a job at Ginghamsburg but ultimately wasn't hired. (I'm still looking.)

At the time, Mark didn't want me to publicize the Web Empowered Church initiative on Great Church Websites, because things were still in development. But I'm sure by now they're up and running and want to get the word out. I'm reminded, in fact, that I need to add this link to the list of e-ministry sites in the popup menu at the bottom of the lefthand column on my site.

TYPO3 was created by a Christian, and some have made a big deal of that. I think the folks behind the initiative chose TYPO3 not only because the developer is Christian but, perhaps more importantly, they knew he was guy with whom they could work to develop the plug-in modules that will be a key feature of the initiative.

However, there is no perfect content management system. Any church considering using TYPO3 shoud read the comments -- both positive and negative -- about TYPO3 on this webpage: http://opensourcecms.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=181

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[Greiggy]

I'm looking at Big Medium from globalmoxie.com (a guy called Josh Clark).

I came across it on the Mac area of VersionTracker where it gets some very affirming reviews. I've had some dialog with Josh and he is very responsive -- always nice to talk to the developer. I like the idea of some hand-holding to get it up and running. Of course it's not specifically Mac because it is server-side.

I have one site where there's a lot of changed content (sermon summary and cell notes every week) and I'm thinking about a new community website where I could give some ownership to a wide variety of people by empowering them to contribute their own edits/content. Cost is about US$ 125 and I could use it on as many sites as I like.

Big Medium isn't on the lists posted as far as I can see and I would be grateful for any opinions that are out there.

I need something that is easy to set up, quick to operate and dead relibale which is why I would pay the $$$ rather than go for an open source solution but you may critique that thinking!

[ctcdmb]

Personally, I enjoy the etomite.org templates that are available. I am not new to HTML and CSS but when it comes to PHP I need a little more practice.

[David Gillaspey]

Personally, I enjoy the etomite.org templates that are available. I am not new to HTML and CSS but when it comes to PHP I need a little more practice.Unfortunately (based on what I saw on the Etomite site (http://etomite.org/) just now), the developer ceased work on Etomite about a month ago. He had worked 2 1/2 years on it, received only $300 in donations, and was the constant target of criticism (according to his post on his forum). Who can blame him?

Now he's focused on developing a whole new CMS.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[ctcdmb]

Unfortunately (based on what I saw on the Etomite site (http://etomite.org/) just now), the developer ceased work on Etomite about a month ago. He had worked 2 1/2 years on it, received only $300 in donations, and was the constant target of criticism (according to his post on his forum). Who can blame him?


Looks like they've recently decided to leave support running for the next version, 0.6.1...Here's the linky:http://www.etomite.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2412

[David Gillaspey]

Looks like they've recently decided to leave support running for the next version, 0.6.1Right, thanks for mentioning that.

Aside from the templates (which you mentioned in your original post), what are the features you like about Etomite?

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Website

[NetMinistry]

This issue of finding a great CMS for church websites is the reason I created the NetMinistry Website Platform (http://www.netministry.com). It combines content management, relationship management, and e-commerce management tools all into one platform. It uses a macro-based template system, which completely frees designers to make wild and crazy designs and it accomodates multiple templates on one website.

We have over 1,000 organizations on the platform and are making some major additions this coming year. I would encourage anyone to give me some input on what we have.

As a pastor myself, it helps to have the right tools. Any current NetMinistry customers in the forum?

Regards,

Pastor Jose Gomez, Jr.
Restoration Ministries Church

[cwgraves]

Has anyone used DotNetNuke? After the release of version 3.1, it is getting pretty good. Microsoft even recognizes it as a valid "best practice" project. It is open source and fully customizable.

I have been using DotNetNuke as a baseline codebase for 3 years. I added some ministry specific modules and have been helping churches and other ministries come up with a professional looking template for use in the system.

I have been a programmer/analyst for 22 years and have been involved in ministry for 17 years. I have been a pastor for several of those years.

If anyone needs some advice on their ministry website or a little extra help, I'm more than willing to help!

[Ravedesigns]

Hi all!

I just signed up here and after posting a quick "hello" I knew I just HAD to come over and throw in my two cents about CMS's. :)

I've looked at many of them over the past few years, mainly because I've been looking for an easy way to let my web design clients edit their websites, and while I've been most impressed with what I've seen from Mambo (or Joomla if you're following the dev teams new project!) there are two systems I've recently found that appear to be excellent, especially for small to medium sized websites.

First up on the list is the free WordPress. (http://wordpress.org/)

More than just a great blogging tool, WordPress can also manage static pages that can be edited with a WYSIWYG editor, and permissions can also be used to give people access to edit only thr pages on the site they have created...perfect to allow certain ministries access to only their own web pages.

In addition to the ease of use, there are many free templates available and while some are only suitable for a personal home page, many are great looking and can easily be customized by modifying a few images to create a really sharp looking site.

Take a free system like this, combined with well written documentation and a large user base and active forums, and you've got all the ingredients for an easy to use church website solution!

The second CMS on my list I've only been aware of for about 24 hours, but I'm already impressed by what I've seen at www.etomite.org and I especially like the apparent ease of use when it comes to designing templates that can be used with this system.

I just installed it on my site tonight and hope to try creating templates for it next week, but it looks promising and I'll let you all know how it works for me.

Wishing you all the best in your church building endeavours!

Steve

[srmcatee]

I developed and operate ChurchLedger.com. We have a CMS product called Ecclasia that is based on Xoops. Xoops and Joomla are good cousins and each provide excellent content management systems. I recommend either one.

I run my current church website at http://broadway.churchledger.com. Its a good example of what Ecclasia/Xoops can do.

Check us out, we are always looking for comments. Our current big challenge is to get our congregation to use the web!!!

You can check out a demo from our main page: www.churchledger.com (http://www.churchledger.com). Feel free to post, write stuff, or anything else you want to do. The demo is a good place to take a test drive and ask a lot of questions.

Feel free to contact me about Xoops, Ecclasia and ChurchLedger.com.

David, Many of your churchweb sites on your list are "custom jobs". Do you have any that have used a CMS that make your list? Can you list the sites by CMS system?

Thanks in advance for all the hard work you do David!!!

[flutem3]

Steve wrote:
"David, Many of your churchweb sites on your list are "custom jobs". Do you have any that have used a CMS that make your list? Can you list the sites by CMS system?"



Hi, Steve,

I am not positive about this, but I think David was looking for "custom jobs."...at least that is my understanding.

However, I may not understand what a content management system is for certain. I have read definitions, but I have no idea how they work. Would somebody enlighten me, please?

Thanks!

Carol

[srmcatee]

Hmmm, what is a content management system...???

I'll try and answer this as briefly as I can. A Content Management System (CMS) is a web application that allows numerous authors or content providers to update various pages on a website without any knowledger of HTML, ASP and/or PHP.

That's my really short answer :)

Now for a long one. CMS's at their core are what I described above. Many though add features beyond the simple web page management. Many have the following features: BLOG, Forums, Calendar of Events, User registration capability, User Notification options for all the features (Forums, Calendars...)

Did that answer your question?

[flutem3]

Steve wrote:

"Now for a long one. CMS's at their core are what I described above. Many though add features beyond the simple web page management. Many have the following features: BLOG, Forums, Calendar of Events, User registration capability, User Notification options for all the features (Forums, Calendars...)

Hi, Steve,

Thank you. Actually, that sounds like what I can do for the most part with the software program I use on our website. I can do all of the above things. I don't do all of them, but I could. However, I have discovered better calendars, for example, than they offer. Well, maybe I am more up to date than I thought. :D I doubt it!!

What do people use if they don't have a CMS?

Carol

[David Gillaspey]

David, Many of your churchweb sites on your list are "custom jobs". Do you have any that have used a CMS that make your list? Can you list the sites by CMS system?Hi Steve,

The list/database of well-designed church home pages on my website was always intended to be a source of design inspiration for church webmasters. (As opposed to, for example, the winners of a "Top 500" website award of some sort.) Thus church websites based on a CMS are generally ineligible for inclusion, on the assumption the design uses a stock template. If that's not the case, for a CMS product in general or specific church, I'm happy to make an exception and include them in the next scheduled review of the database (about two weeks from now).

However, I maintain on my website a long list of CMS vendors. This is evidence enough, I believe, that I otherwise wholeheartedly support the use of CMS products by churches.

Thanks in advance for all the hard work you do David!!!You're welcome!

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[chrisb_ebc]

What are the advantages for CMS. I really like the concept of it, but to be honest with you all - most of the stuff I have seen looks like its canned, which I believe it is, (sorry if I am wrong about that) but it looks to generic. To basic and gutless. My church does not have many web savy people. But I would like people to be able to input info onto there pages. Its hard enough to get them to respond to a email or take a picture or two. Is this a real viable option in my situation?

[Faithhb_lutheran]

The question of what type of site to use is in my opinion a personal decision, you have to decide what fits your audience the best and then just go. For congregations with a less tech savvy membership and staff, then a hand coded site is usually easier as you have more control.

[srmcatee]

Interesting question David. CMS can be custom. The artwork I use on my site is custom. CMS are usually based on CSS. The content is the same, but there is something a little more than template based.

But I could also see your point as a CMS not necessarily being a design inspiration.

How about a second category. Churches effectively using websites for the Great Commission. I believe that this hits on both design, concept, and "defining" your online presence.

[srmcatee]

Hi Chris. In a sort CMS's are canned. The put structure around you to "maintain your content". This structure also makes it easier for you to involve non-tech people in helping admnistrate and update the site.

It's not all canned- For our product, Ecclasia, I'm allowing any church to redesign their template and re-arrange to their hearts content. They just have to have a link and show they are using Ecclasia to operate their website.

You can take a look at multiple Xoops sites here: http://xoopsfactory.com/modules/xoops-site-of-the-month/index.php

This will give you an idea of the creative freedom a CMS can give you.

[srmcatee]

Its hard enough to get them to respond to a email or take a picture or two. Is this a real viable option in my situation?

Forgot to answer you on this question. I have the same problem at my church. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself on the site.

But you will never, ever get web-enabled people in your church if you do not have a good website.

[flutem3]

Hello to one and all,

I am totally confused. I am hearing about CSS, HTML, CMS, etc. which all sound the same to me in the end.

People talk about how great CSS is, but there are things they are unable to do as they wish. Same with the others. Is there a template? Isn't there a template.

It is enough to make a person's head spin around. I have decided that it makes no difference what is used unless people are pulled into the website in one way or another.

There are not too many church websites that I am aware of that have a lot of traffic unless it is a huge church. Or, unless like the people in Folsom, CA, almost everyone is online because ****** is there.

The websites that I find that have to do with anything religious which have lots of visitors are ones like www.kencollins.com (http://www.kencollins.com/) or www.hymnsite.com (http://www.hymnsite.com/) both or which are wonderful, but they are not church websites per se.

People say to make a website interactive, have fresh material, etc. If that is done, but people still don't use it much, I don't know what a person is to do. What I do is keep trying. Someday, if I am fortunate, I am going to hit on the right combination of content that matters not only to our congregation but to others as well. I may be a very old lady when they happens, but I will keep plugging away.

We had a visitor to the website from Tehran, Iran, and he/she stayed a bit. Last week much to my surprise we had people there from Cordoba, Spain, Turkey, and Taiwan. On my site statistics it looks pretty neat when it says, "languages." Taiwanese, Spanish, French, and Turkish were listed. We also had someone from Quebec. And all of these people stayed a bit...not long...but at least long enough to register...usually three pages.What fun! I have a list of countries and universities which have hit the site in the last two+ years.

Carol

[JackWolfgang]

I am totally confused. I am hearing about CSS, HTML, CMS, etc. which all sound the same to me in the end.

Let's straighten out the confusion:

CMS--Content Management System. A program that allows users to edit portions of a web site without knowing HTML, XHTML, or CSS. Most Content Management Systems are written in PHP, which is a server-side scripting language for the web (but there are others). Some examples of Content Management Systems are WordPress (http://wordpress.org/) (started as blogging, but acquiring CMS features especially with the use of plug-ins), TYPO3 (http://typo3.com/), and DotNetNuke (http://www.dotnetnuke.com/) (there are many others). A CMS can also be custom built for specific applications (a good example of this is the Web Empowered Church (http://webempoweredchurch.com/), which is a derivative work of TYPO3; but some organizations built their own CMS. Wikipedia has a more in-depth definition of CMS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_management_system). OpenSourceCMS.com/ (http://www.opensourcecms.com/) provides a site where people can try different kinds of Open Source Content Management Systems.

HTML--HyperText Markup Language. The tag-based language that all web sites are written in. While programming languages & constructs such as PHP, Java, JavaScript, and ASP.NET can build and modify HTML, pages remain mainly HTML or its successor, XHTML. HTML was invented by Sir Tim Berners-Lee (he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II for his work), but the standards are now created and maintained by the World Wide Web Consortium (http://www.w3.org/) (W3C). HTML 4.01 is the current (and last) version of HTML.

XHTML--eXtensible HyperText Markup Language. HTML reformulated using eXtensible Markup Language (XML). By reformulating the language, HTML can be more easily machine read. XHTML 1.0 and 1.1 are current versions of XHTML.

CSS--Cascading Style Sheets are used to style HTML and XHTML. In the beginning HTML styles were incorporated into the tags using tags such as <b></b> (bold-face), <i></i> (italics), and <font></font> (miscellaneous font styling). Now, HTML has deprecated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecated) (which means left them in the language, but recommends against using them in preparation for phasing them out) these tags (however, the strict definitions of (X)HTML have removed presentational tags). Cascading style sheets replaces these tags using class and ID attributes to tags in addition to the structural tags (<h#></h#> for headings, <p></p> for paragraphs, etc.) and a separate style section (inline stylesheets) or file (external stylesheets) to control the visual (and auditory if done correctly) presentation of the page. Style sheets offer advantages in that the user can override most stylesheet rules (e.g. make the font bigger, choose colors with more contrast) through the use of user style sheets and that the visual style can be different for different media (for example, serif fonts are easier to read on the printed page, but sans serif fonts are easier to read on the screen).

People talk about how great CSS is, but there are things they are unable to do as they wish. Same with the others. Is there a template? Isn't there a template.

There isn't a template, but using tools such as the Web Developer Toolbar (http://chrispederick.com/work/webdeveloper/) for the Mozilla-based browsers (such as Firefox) can be used to inspect a pages' CSS. CSS can also be inspected manually by viewing the page source and then manually entering the URL for the CSS file.

There are some good HTML and CSS tutorials and references at HTMLHelp.com (http://htmlhelp.com).

It is enough to make a person's head spin around. I have decided that it makes no difference what is used unless people are pulled into the website in one way or another.

Standards-based sites don't guarantee accessibility, but they do make accessibility easier. And to quote David once again:

What does it mean to make your church website accessible? It means your church website can be browsed and understood by people who are blind, who have poor vision, who are hard of hearing or deaf, who are colorblind, who are handicapped, who are learning impaired, etc. Why should you care whether such people can browse your site or not? Because they matter to God, too.

There are not too many church websites that I am aware of that have a lot of traffic unless it is a huge church. Or, unless like the people in Folsom, CA, almost everyone is online because ****** is there.

Traffic to our site maybe low, but accessible, standards-compliant web design has another side-effect: better search engine placement. Because search engine spiders are blind (images don't matter to them unless they have alt tags).

People say to make a website interactive, have fresh material, etc. If that is done, but people still don't use it much, I don't know what a person is to do. What I do is keep trying. Someday, if I am fortunate, I am going to hit on the right combination of content that matters not only to our congregation but to others as well. I may be a very old lady when they happens, but I will keep plugging away.

It's a struggle, but hopefully there are people in your church who appreciate your work. If not, you mention some rewards in the next paragraph.

We had a visitor to the website from Tehran, Iran, and he/she stayed a bit. Last week much to my surprise we had people there from Cordoba, Spain, Turkey, and Taiwan. On my site statistics it looks pretty neat when it says, "languages." Taiwanese, Spanish, French, and Turkish were listed. We also had someone from Quebec. And all of these people stayed a bit...not long...but at least long enough to register...usually three pages.What fun! I have a list of countries and universities which have hit the site in the last two+ years.

And that's the final benefit of a church web site. We can reach people for low-cost that we normally couldn't reach because of finacial constraints, time constraints, and physical ability constraints. It also provides a way to transform the church from a 1/1/52 organization to a 24/7/365 organization (that is, an organization that meets 1 hour a day, 1 day a week, 52 days a year to one that is effective 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year).

Phew, that's a lot. Hope I didn't overwhelm anyone.

[flutem3]

My goodness, Jack, you wrote a book! Thank you. I am not certain I have everything sorted out yet, but bit by bit I'll get there.

And you are right about the benefits. It is just amazing when I see people from different places in the world. I think sometimes they get there by accident, but there is someone from South Africa who comes back. And would you believe we had a visitor from the Ivory Coast. My geography is even getting better! Will wonders never cease. This is a mighty tool we have at our disposal. I wish it were always used in positive ways.

Thanks again. I will check out the links you included as well.

Carol

[David Gillaspey]

Hi Steve,

How about a second category. Churches effectively using websites for the Great Commission."Great church websites" are in fact more than just good-looking sites, as you suggest. One should also consider content, navigation, accessibility, standards-compliance (some would say), and, yes, whether one or the other goals of discipleship or evangelism are being met. The problem is, to evaluate church websites on all these criteria would be incredibly time-consuming. Someone should do this, but I know I don't have time. As it is, I've exhausted myself evaluating thousands of websites just on design alone. But thanks for the suggestion. :)

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites