My boss [Archive] - The Church Webmasters' Forum

flutem3

Fri., Oct. 28, 2005, 4:01 pm

Mr. Belfry wrote:

"The assistant minister regularly reads the website and he lets me know when I've done typo's or which things I need to change and I am very grateful for that."

Hi, there,

It is good to be back on the forum. I have found a couple of things I will share with everyone when I figure out where the best place is.

Re: boss I am the boss, editor, designer, proof reader, etc., etc., etc. I would like for somebody to care enough and understand the importance of what can be done to check. But, I seem to be very much alone with the web site. If I were to fall over dead, the web site would die as well, I think. And unfortunately, few people from the church would notice.

Curtis, et. al., I do understand about people and returning and wanting to return. There are about ten frequent users of the web site. However, we didn't have any return visitors at one time so we have made progress. I am curious about something. How long have each of your churches had a website on the internet?

I hope you are all well.

mrbelfry

Mon., Oct. 31, 2005, 4:08 am

Hi Carol

We've had a website for about 5 years and we've probably had about 5 redesigns in that time as we've progressed. The first site was hideous, the second site wasn't much better etc etc. The funny thing is a lot of people in the church still haven't worked out we've got a website despite putting the address on every piece of literature and highlighting the new design in the church magazine!

Peggie

Mon., Oct. 31, 2005, 8:32 am

Who is the boss? Here it is the senior pastor... for everything. He is very controlling and it is frustrating. This is my first project with him and I have been pulling my hair out. (Good thing I have plenty of it so it does not show much yet!). The church has had a web site, but no one kept it up and it looked bad. It had been formatted by a company and all the church did was fill in the blanks when they update it. However, no one wanted to, the info put there by the webdesign/host company was all outdated. I talked to the pastor about it and he told me to go ahead with the project and they would change hosting companies when I got it ready. I gave him a questionaire to find out what direction they wanted to go, sites he liked so I got an idea of what he was looking for and also gave each staff memeber a short "bio" to fill out. After about two months of not getting anything back except from the secretary and children's pastor I was getting a bit discouraged. I sent out another email to all of them.. including the senior pastor. A week or two later he comes into the auditorium and asks me if I have the site ready to go up yet, he did not want to pay the other company anymore! I told him no, he had not got back to me!!! He told me to take info off the old site and do something, whatever I could using the new logo. I worked for hours, got a few more people to get back to me about their departments and worked for more hours. I sent him a copy of what I was trying to come up with, and his response was "here is a site I like and thought about..." you are doing ok, but I had something like this (name of site)in mind. UGH!:mad:

I was furious and let it set for some time to cool off. I am back at it again, have a few more people that got back to me with the info I needed and am trying to redesign my redesign with the least amount of additional work. I wish I was just let go to do it and not have to deal with a control freak!

Hmm hope he does not look at this site!

Peggie

flutem3

Mon., Oct. 31, 2005, 9:20 am

Peggie wrote:

I was furious and let it set for some time to cool off. I am back at it again, have a few more people that got back to me with the info I needed and am trying to redesign my redesign with the least amount of additional work. I wish I was just let go to do it and not have to deal with a control freak!

Hi, Peggie,

I, for one, think you have every right in the world to be angry. I have a some suggestions:

1. Tell him if he does not like what you are doing, he can do it himself.

2. If you are getting paid, double your fee.

3. If you are not getting paid, keep track of your hours, figure how much they would be worth at fair value (I don't know what that amount is.) and ask to be paid, or

4. Tell your pastor this is part of your tithe and that you will deduct the amount from it.

5. Have him draw up on paper what he wants in a website and do it with him.

6. Tell him to jump in the lake, kindly, of course, and get someone else to do it.

7. Take a deep breath.

8. If worse comes to worse, quit. It is too hard on your health and takes too much energy of all kinds to put yourself in such an untenable position. You may not "win" no matter what you do. So you MUST take care of yourself.
No website is worth making yourself miserable over...especially one for a church.

Has anyone talked to him about this? It seems that he must be making lots of people miserable. Some something to your trustees. That's their job to take care of this kind of situation because you can depend that nobody else appreciates his controlling manner either.

Carol

Peggie

Mon., Oct. 31, 2005, 9:41 am

Carol.
Thanks for the ideas. No, I am not getting paid. This man frustrates me, but has a charismatic personality to people who do not have to work close with him. He has been here forever( 19 yrs, as long as the church) and people are used to him, and even though it frustrates people, they just accept it as the way it is. I have not been from this church, but moved here a number of months ago and not used to this, nor do I feel it is right. My husband of 29+ years was a pastor and never would he have been like this. My new husband works here and gets frustrated, but loves his job so he deals with it, but gets mad too. I guess I am just not as gracious and put up with things as people here. I was going to give it back to him, but after cooling down decided I am doing it and he can take it or leave it. Others have been happy with what I have done. I have always tried to please, my nature is to do all I can and bend over backwards, but I just felt walked on and disrespected. I get the impression he will only respect those in the upper class financially and professionally... he associates with people with a "name" and I am not there. My husband is the building administrator of the church, just not the same brackett as what the pastor respects.

Enough griping.

Thanks again for the reply. I do appreciate the ideas and will pray about using them should this continue as it has.

Peggie

flutem3

Mon., Oct. 31, 2005, 12:04 pm

Hi, Peggie,

I have another suggestion for you. Why don't you join UMConnect? It is a terrific problem solving group with some bright minds in it as well.

To join, click this URL:

> http://list.gbgm-umc.org/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=umconnect

I like it a lot. One of the things which will happen on that forum is that if you have a particular problem, somebody will work with you off the forum by email until you get it solved. They are a dogged group of people. The skill level ranges from minimal to outstanding. If you can't find an answer there, I don't know where you would find one. There are a couple of us who work together to help someone: one technical person, one person who enjoys using color.

It is a good place to go.

Carol

Peggie

Mon., Oct. 31, 2005, 2:39 pm

Carol,
Thank you. NO spam from this site? I am so leary of stuff now, but it sounds good and I am going there now.

Funny, after I wrote that message this AM, my husband came home from work and said the pastor was asking about the web site. My husband was pretty ticked off. I was too! I do not even have a place to put it up to yet... his doing.. and he wants it up. I just found out the last person gave it back to him because she could not please him. Wonderful!

Thanks!
Peggie

bsiverly

Mon., Oct. 31, 2005, 9:02 pm

I was having a conversation over email with the webmaster, and it inspired this thread, so I thought I should weigh in.

We have just given birth (with significant labor pain) a new website. The old site was designed by a hosting firm and was never updated. Just too hard and too costly (they charged for each change), so it never got done.

Being a systems manager for a Fortune 5 company here in Bloomington, IL (I'll let you guess which one), I've been serving as the chair of "tech" for the church for awhile. I've got quite a bit of website experience, designing and maintaining sites on the side... even designed and managed Barack Obama's campaign website, our newest US Senator from Illinois.

Anyway, I could have done a website that I'd have to maintain at a huge sacrifice of my time. Didn't want that, so we looked into the CMS options. I've got to say that most of them were junk, and the ones that were decent were expensive rip-offs.

I decided that I could build them an open source CMS (we chose Mambo) and could train them to maintain the site. Then the black hole opened up for my time as a committee was convened to "design" the site.

First, they started picking sites that were technically impossible for a CMS. Then they started doing their own design which would have taken a lot of work to get something that looked better than our original site.

I finally involved a professional designer I knew in Chicago who agreed to come up with a simple design to their specs at a highly reduced rate. I told them I'd send their ideas to him, but they got his email address and started taking him on all kinds of "goose chases." After about 25 designs (he was incredibly patient) we had our final choice that still everyone doesn't agree on.

Long story, I know. We've launched the site now, and now we're arguing about the most important stuff of all... the content. Who changes things, and who edits what appears. We don't want a free-for-all, and I'm just working on that now. But there's another committee in charge of that... the Communications Committee. I silently edit the stuff that shows up until I can lead classes for the staff who will be adding to the site.

I know it sounds bad, but the congregation is generally pleased and amazed at what was possible and all they'll be able to do themselves now. They're giddy with excitement, actually... wearing me out with their lofty ideas.

I started on the CMS route to save me time, but ended up spending hundreds of hours over a 6-9 month period. But it was fun, I guess.

Wanna have a look? Here it is...

www.wesley-umc.com (http://www.wesley-umc.com)

I welcome your ideas, and will probably agree with most of your criticisms. I've probably said the same things myself. It's just a few weeks out of the gate, and improving every day.

In the end, we have a website that's a lot like a church. It's an imperfect expression of a vigorous congregation where people are involved in shaping what appears. I'll take that over the technically/cosmetically perfect antiseptic sites that are all over the Net any day.

Bryan

David Gillaspey

Mon., Oct. 31, 2005, 11:24 pm

Hi Bryan,

Thanks for joining the forum, and for posting.

I was having a conversation over email with the webmaster, and it inspired this thread, so I thought I should weigh in.(To all) Yes, this is true.

This "conversation starter" question was indeed inspired by Bryan's situation with the committee. I couldn't, however, assume that everyone had committees with which they had to deal, so the question ended up being somewhat generic. It can answered by webmasters who have pastoral oversight as well as those answering to a committee.

Anyway, I'm glad you weighed in, Bryan. I'm especially interested in hearing from other church webmasters who have had to deal with a committee, either in the planning for and launching stages of a new website (or redesign), or afterward on an ongoing basis. Please share your experiences, both positive and negative.

Thanks again, Byran!

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

flutem3

Tue., Nov. 1, 2005, 12:29 am

Peggie wrote:

Thank you. NO spam from this site? I am so leary of stuff now, but it sounds good and I am going there now.

Peggie,

What site are you asking about? If you are asking about www.umc.org, I have not ever had anything that I didn't ask for sent by them. It is the main site for the United Methodist Church. The section of the site which deals with web ministry is GBGM which is the General Board of Global Ministries. You probably know this information, but I didn't. In case you don't know, there it is. The navigation on the site isn't all that great, but the entire www.umc.org site has some fine information on it.

There are also book reviews and movie reviews that you can set up on your site. They change monthly...and you need not do a thing. There are also CD reviews which change bi-monthly. You can just copy and paste html snippets, but it sounds as if you know how to do all of those things.

At any rate, you can sign up and follow what goes on. Do NOT get the digest. It is easier and you can follow the threads better if you get the posts as they happen. The digest is a mess as far as I am concerned. I got that first because I didn't know any better. :) You will find that I respond to all kinds of things just like I do here. And I have learned a lot too and met some neat people just like on here. UMConnect is a little more casual than this forum, I think. And I am not sure why I define it that way. My last name is Berg so when you see Carol Berg posting, you know I am keeping up whether I know what I am talking about or not...same as here. :-)

Keep on keeping on. I would not let that web site get to you. I mean it. Web sites may at times be irritating or frustrating when information doesn't come in or when you try very hard to find out what people will want to return to your website to read, but it needs to be a joy. If it isn't, it is not worth your time nor your energy and health to continue. I am not a person who easily backs away from something, but I just might given the situation you have described. It could not help but make me miserable because from what you are saying, it does not matter what you do. It isn't right. And if he tries to make you feel guilty for one thing or another, leave. He is a "toxic person" even if he is a preacher person even if he is charismatic and has been there forever. I don't know why we accept such behavior from people because of their "position." It makes no sense to me. I suggest that he has to step up to your level in order to work on the web site. :-) How much experience does he have building/designing web sites?

And so I pray that the situation is resolved.

Carol

Peggie

Thu., Nov. 3, 2005, 7:40 am

Carol,
Thanks for the info. I joined and signed up for digest to have less mail, but you are right.... hard to figure out. I am going back in and changing it. My last name is Loden and I will be slow to answer anyone I am sure, at this point anyway.
If anyone else out there has had problems with "dictator pastors" please let me know. At this point, I have put the site as is in his hands to see what he thinks. If he does not answer and then tells me he had something else in mind, but has not told me what I am going to hand it back to him (minus all my work on photos, copy etc).
Thanks again.
Peggie

flutem3

Thu., Nov. 3, 2005, 9:17 am

Peggie wrote:

If anyone else out there has had problems with "dictator pastors" please let me know.

Peggie,

That is an excellent question to put on UMConnect. It is definitely a web site issue. There are many pastors' wives as well as pastors who are on there. And many others "lurk." You will undoubtedly get some good feedback...or at least support if nothing else so you will not feel alone with the issue. You don't need to respond to everyone. I don't. I just respond when I can add something, maybe, or when I have a question. I guess the biggest difference between that forum and this one is that UMConnect is like a big Q & A session. It is a rapid response team.

Does your minister ever say precisely what he wants? Ask him to draw up mock pages before you begin to put up a page. And if he doesn't do it, don't put the page up.

I can tell you for sure that if our Associate Pastor were the Senior Pastor, I would be in the same situation. I have recently realized that she wants everything her way and that she thinks she knows how to do everything better than everyone else. She is multi-talented...but not that much. She has made derogatory comments about the website. I told her to draw me up a page of how she thinks it should be. She said she didn't have time. I told her that is why I am doing the web site. Nobody else seems to have the time. I know what my limitations are, but I am learning and as I learn the website will improve.

By the way, does anyone know for sure which is correct: website or web site?
Thanks!

Carol

Bob96

Thu., Nov. 3, 2005, 9:35 am

The viewer is my "boss". If he/she isn't attracted to my church's website or doesn't stay there long enough to grasp the information, then all of my effort is fruitless. If I can't attract the viewer's attention in a few seconds, it only takes one click for him/her to be gone, perhaps forever.

It doesn't make much sense to be concerned about whether or not the "senior" pastor or some other church staffer or committee is the "boss" of your church's website, if it isn't reaching its intended audience.

In regard to the design of your website, the only critics that a webmaster should give any attention to are other well experienced or well-trained designers. Art appraisers would be much less helpful and professional if they based their evaluations on the opinions of ordinary viewers. The same kind of expert judgments are necessary when it comes to evaluating the design of a website. Don't be too concerned about the criticism of your site's colors or format or other design details from untrained church members or staff.

On the other hand, the untrained viewer, non-church member, and non-believer can be a very helpful critic of your website and its message. He/she can indicate in various ways whether or not its pages are attractive, interesting, readable, easily navigated, and helpful. These benefits should be the objectives of your efforts, and they should be the ones about which you should be concerned.

Invite your "senior" pastor or other staff, church members, or committee members to evaluate your website in regard to its immediate appeal and easy of use, its clear informative content, and of course its timeliness. Do its pages and statements address valid human needs of your members and non-members, Christians and non-Christians? Is the vocabulary and written style of such a quality that it is understandable by non-believers and non-members, or is it in some form of "Christianese" that even many church members may no longer really understand?

If your viewer doesn't get it, the message of your website hasn't been delivered and it doesn't make a lot of difference what your "senior" pastor or committee members think of your site and its pages. If you are the webmaster of your church's site, or the author of its contents or some of its statements, or its designer or photographer, then you should be the most severest critic of your own work. Does it communicate what you want it to communicate to the person you want it to reach? He/she is your "boss". IMHO.

Peggie

Thu., Nov. 3, 2005, 10:41 am

I agree. However, here, if the Sr. Pastor does not like something it will not go up, will not happen etc. He gave no direction to me. I gave him a sheet with questions on, which included : goals of site, target audience, sites he liked, info he wanted included etc. I heard nothing and then about 6 weeks later he asked what I had done and ready! I told him in the questionaire (which I know he read!) that I was not starting till I knew where he wanted to go. He then told me to just do something so we can get it up, anything for now. I worked on a general site, simple, and something that was handicap (blind) usable and also we are in an area with poor as well as some rural with no dsl, cable, broadband available, and in some places the dial-up is slower than molassis(sp?) in January. I tried to keep all this in mind when putting it together.
I sent him what I had, a few pages so he could let me know before I did any more. I heard nothing, then he got after my husband about what was I doing with the site. Rick told him I was waiting for him before I did any more, like my email had said. From there he asked me to send it again, with anything more I had done! I sent it to him, along with the more I had been playing with and he then (after getting after him) sent me a site and said "he was thinking of something more like this..." By then I had many many hours into it and the one he liked was almost all graphics that needed to be made. No blind person could use it, without dsl or something faster it would not be available to many outside of town, or the poor. He thinks he knows better than anyone about everything and it is frustrating. I want to go for the audience, as well as for a witness for the Lord. Like I said, nothing goes up unless he gives the ok, nothing else happens here without his control either.
I am waiting to hear back from him now, given the "wrong" (or is it right?) answer, he may be given this site back to do himself.
I am excited inside, want to learn and grow in this web site design, but feel so frustrated with it all.
Sorry, I am babbling.
Peggie

flutem3

Thu., Nov. 3, 2005, 11:30 am

Peggie wrote:

"I am excited inside, want to learn and grow in this web site design, but feel so frustrated with it all.Sorry, I am babbling."

Hi, Peggie,

You are not babbling. You are faced with a very real problem. I know that you want to do the church web site. Perhaps, however, this is not the time for you to be doing it.

If I were in your shoes, which admittedly I am not, I would resign from doing the web site. Now, I can tell that you are excited about web site design so I would find another cause in which you are fascinated or excited and volunteer to design a web site for them. I do not have the problems you have with the minister. But I decided to do just what I suggested to you. The site is:

http://www.fishofwabash.org

I thought that site was not going to go up for entirely different reasons from the above. The FISH Board of Directors is comprised mostly of people without computers. But eventually, they decided I could go ahead. :) It is a small site, but I had great fun working with it. And I learned more.

Carol

PS There is always the possibility that if you resign and say why you are resigning that the minister will see what he has done. I doubt it, but there is that possibility...but not unless he knows why you decided not to do it. If he has the web site editors continuously quitting, sooner or later he may get the point...maybe. I also don't care how long he has been at your church, whether people have gotten used to "his ways," or whether he is charismatic. He sounds like a bully to me. I am surprised that the Trustees or DS haven't taken him to task for that kind of behavior. I don't find it acceptable behavior at all. :mad:

flutem3

Tue., Nov. 8, 2005, 2:45 pm

Hi, one and all,

I don't know where to put this so I will place it here. David, will you please tell me where I should stick some of these things?

I am super frustrated right now. I had a survey about the website in the bulletin on Sunday and in the newsletter. It had one question which I had asked the minister to ask people to answer if no other. The question was "do you have a computer? yes___ no___ " I then had some other questions about the sites they went to, frequency, what they liked about the ones they returned to, etc. It was nothing fancy. I got 10 replies. I could not believe it. I expected 10%, no more than that. But the people just threw them away and didn't even look at them from what I have been told. Boy, oh, boy, I wish I could get to church and do some solid PR work. Nobody else can (will) do the kind of job I would do. I am one whale of a sales person is I believe in the product. I am just irritated from the tips of my hair to the bottom of my feet. Fiddlesticks!!!

I am open for any ideas that anyone has. I know that the new church addition is first and foremost in people's minds, but, my goodness. YIKES!!! I had to tell my difficulties to those of you who would understand my situation. I feel like I am beating my head against a wall. Maybe this is not the right time. But it seems to me the all time is the right time for God so I will continue to plug ahead.

I was just about to say that I was sorry that I dumped on you, but I am not or I would delete this. :D And I am not going to do it.

Any thoughts, ideas, support and consolation will be appreciated!!

Carol

Peggie

Tue., Nov. 8, 2005, 2:57 pm

Carol,
I can cry with you if that helps!! I sent in the web site for feedback from the pastor and some key people over a week ago. I have heard from the children's pastor and the pastors wife. The childrens pastor loved it, the pastors wife just told me she had updated some info and I needed to change what I had. No feedback. :mad: The pastor has said nothing to me, just a complaint about a few pages being too long to my husband (I knew they were, but was waiting for pics to divide them into more pages and make all changes at once) UGH! So, cry for you and with you seems like the thing to do!

Peggie

flutem3

Tue., Nov. 8, 2005, 3:12 pm

Peggie said:

"I can cry with you if that helps!!"

Yup, Peggie, that helps. Last night I nearly was in tears. I was tired, feeling just so-so, and frustrated. I rarely cry. But I nearly let go last night. I don't know if the men cry too, but if they don't, I bet they feel like doing something sometimes. I don't know what they do.

Well, I am okay. I think I will just kind of drop it right now. In the meantime, tell your pastor to get off his high horse and work with you. What is the matter with that man? I don't know if I could or would work under those circumstances. I don't think I would. I would wait until he moved, retired, or met his reward and then do the web site. :D

How does he excuse his behavior?

Carol

flutem3

Mon., Nov. 14, 2005, 12:12 am

Bob wrote:

"It doesn't make much sense to be concerned about whether or not the "senior" pastor or some other church staffer or committee is the "boss" of your church's website, if it isn't reaching its intended audience.

Hi, Bob,

It does matter if the senior pastor or some other person has the final say as to whether a site even goes up or not. Some people are in that position. No matter how fine, wonderful, expressive, sticky, appropriate, etc. the website is, if there is a "go" or "no-go" person, it does not get on the website.

In theory the audience is the "boss." In practice it may be very different from that indeed. Control of a website always lies with someone, a committee, etc.
That person, committee, board, or whatever just may have to okay the project. At our church they are just glad I am doing it...despite it's needing a redesign. They think it is great. (It isn't, but I try hard.) With the Fish web site the control is with their Board of Directors. The site did not go up until I had their approval.

How we would like it to be and how it is are some times far apart. I wish they weren't. It has to be a tough situation for those who face it all the time.

And so it goes.

Carol

PS Where has everyone gone?

Jim Sewell

Sat., Aug. 26, 2006, 10:56 am

1. Tell him if he does not like what you are doing, he can do it himself.
4. Tell your pastor this is part of your tithe and that you will deduct the amount from it.
6. Tell him to jump in the lake, kindly, of course, and get someone else to do it.

Hi gang,
I realize that I'm the new kid on the block but when reading through this thread I couldn't let it pass. Sorry for necro-posting something over a year old.

With all due respect, this is horrible advice. First and foremost if you are doing Kingdom work because you are a volunteer, you feel pressured, it's what you are good at, etc. then I submit that you are doing it for the wrong reason. We are ministers of the Gospel whether it is as a member of the 5-fold ministry (apostle, prophet, evangelists, pastors, teachers) an installed position (deacons, elders, etc) or as what many call "lay members".

Do we create church websites because we can? Why not do one for the electronics store and get paid better then? We should do it to the Lord with everything in us for the expansion of His Kingdom. As such we should have His anointing to do things... get new ideas, implement them, deal with others in patience and love, etc.

To suggest someone should tell the Pastor to do it himself or to jump in the lake (how does one do that kindly?) is just wrong. Either your Pastor is a man or woman of God placed there to equip you for the work of the ministry or not. If not then you need to find a part of the Body you fit into that has a Pastor who is about the Father's business. If so then he is there to equip you, not to do it himself! That kind of rebellion will do nothing but heap curses upon yourself, no matter how our pride makes us feel that we are justified.

Also remember, as my Pastor says, there's nothing on the other side of quit. Have you tried to swallow your pride and how right you are (and I don't doubt that you are right about designing webs) and having a respectful conversation with your Pastor? Tell him "Pastor, I'm here to do whatever you want with the website as much as I possibly can." And mean it. Explain why you can't have 85 meg sermon download .WAVs for folks on dialup. Don't say "No, that's not possible" but rather "Pastor, we can, but if we do that it will take about 2 days to download one message."

Most of all, be like Jesus and get into the servant's attitude willing to wash others feet instead of being right. Another lesson I have had to learn is to not be so quick to say "I can't" but really look and research and find solutions to do what he wants if it is at all possible. If he is hearing from God then it will be a much better result!

Again, I apologize if this comes across rudely or as a "who is this guy we've never heard from before." I just joined this forum and this thread struck a real chord with my spirit because I have been there and almost cursed myself out of God's will by getting attitude with the Pastor He has placed over me. Now that I'm across the river from the place He has for me I can see that the desert experience was due to me complaining and murmuring and that my Pastor is not stupid or hateful - he just has a burning in his heart to do Kingdom things that I should have in mine and it comes across as pushy. I'm not sure that's the OPs problem with her Pastor, but if you are in the right church then I beg you to put aside pride and hurt feelings and work with him to get God's work done.

Offence is as a walled city. I have many times had to go wall-bustin' but to do otherwise is to seal yourself off from God. We can't stop God's plan, only our involvement in it.

Be blessed.

flutem3

Sat., Aug. 26, 2006, 12:24 pm

Jim wrote:

"With all due respect, this is horrible advice. First and foremost if you are doing Kingdom work because you are a volunteer, you feel pressured, it's what you are good at, etc. then I submit that you are doing it for the wrong reason. We are ministers of the Gospel whether it is as a member of the 5-fold ministry (apostle, prophet, evangelists, pastors, teachers) an installed position (deacons, elders, etc) or as what many call "lay members".

Hi, Jim,

Of course, it is horrible advice. One of the problems in responding to something that old when you are brand new is that it is easy to take information seriously which was not meant to be taken seriously.

What I advised was done sarcastically. It is how some, not all, of us feel when the web site seems to be overwhelming. I submit that a person can be doing a website for all of how you define the "right" reasons and still become so frustrated that he/she wants to quit.

You speak as if we must always feel the hand of God in our work, or we should not be doing it. I disagree. I would hope that a person would build any kind of website with joy... and especially with a church website just because there are so many built in frustrations.

If the joy is not there, don't get into building and kind of websites. And church websites are special places because we are talking about spreading the Gospel as well as representing our churches on the website.

I do not go into very fancy language with this. If there is no joy, don't do it.
There will always be obstacles of one kind or anything to overcome; and if the joy is not there, the obstacles seem impossible.

You may wonder where God is in all of this. He is in the joy. And He is in my prayers that I do what is His Will. That's it.

Welcome to the forum!

Carol

flutem3

Sat., Aug. 26, 2006, 1:00 pm

Hi, Jim,

Re: Pastors

You seem to give pastors lots of credence. You also appear to place them in a mighty position. I don't. They are just people like you and me. My grandfather was a pastor and an excellent one. The people who are old enough in our town to remember him just loved him, his love of God, his ability to express it and teach it, his singing, his laughter, his tears. But he was booted out of our church because he stood by his convictions. He also stood up to the Ku Klux Klan many years ago. For his behavior a large cross was burned at night in front of the church.

Ministers are people. Some have had a calling; some have not. I was in South America and met all of the missionaries in Peru. I had always put missionaries on some kind of a pedestal. But they are just like you and me. But they try to share the Word of God which we try to do as well with a website.

I am 65 and have met good ministers, terrible ministers, and the majority which were average. The same was true with the missionaries. One lady became a missionary when she was 66. She had taught history at a university and had her doctor's degree. However, she decided that she would show people that she was still "worth" something and became a missionary. You may think that is an odd reason. She said that no, she didn't hear the "call of the Lord," or anything like that. She wanted to "show" people that she had some stuff left in her. And guess who was the most effective missionary that I saw during my 2 plus years in Peru. Yep, she was by far. She loved God. She loved the people; they loved her. She hardly spoke Spanish, but she did speak music. It was wonderful to watch.

Our current pastors are terrific, gifted people with whom I cooperate all the time. But none of them has any idea of what is required in a website. But I also have very bright pastors who, if they remember, tell me the information and let me run with it.

As you can tell, I do not have such a lofty feeling or attitude about ministers. I think they have very difficult, demanding jobs...sometimes with few resources. But they are just like you and me.

Jesus was the Son of God and Son of Man. Minister or pastors are just plain people like we are who have studied lots and lots and sacrifice a normal life to be a minister. A minister is a child of God just as we all are.

Ministers/Pastors are not special people because they are pastors. They are regular people, some of whom allow God to work in their lives. I have never met a decent pastor who did not approach his job with humility. But I have seen quite a number of pastors who did not. And who am I to judge? I am just a plain old child of God who sees what is right in front of her face.

Now, you may get the idea that I don't care for ministers. That would be incorrect. I love ministers. I also love lots of other people as well.

Have you ever had a minister who was a bully? They exist. And I, for one, will not be bullied by anyone including a pastor. I don't know how old you are, but it may be that we are looking at ministers from very different perspectives. Keep writing. You do it well.

Carol

David Gillaspey

Sat., Aug. 26, 2006, 1:22 pm

Thanks Jim and Carol for both your responses.

(Trying to keep the peace here.)

Doing ministry can be hard and discouraging. I get discouraged about my own website, Great Church Websites (which hosts this forum), but every so often someone writes to thank me for the material on the site and to say the site has been a help to them in their ministry. That's always encouraging.

That's why a forum like this is a great place to share with each other about the joys and struggles of web ministry.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites
(and forum administrator)

David Gillaspey

Sat., Aug. 26, 2006, 1:49 pm

Hi, Jim,

Re: Pastors

You seem to give pastors lots of credence. You also appear to place them in a mighty position. Hi Jim and Carol (again),

Actually I'm going to agree with both of you.

Pastors are ordinary people, as Carol says; nevertheless, it's clear that biblically, they are the shepherds of the church that they pastor. (Some denominations, however, choose not have "pastors" to begin with, but "ministers" or "preaching ministers" or "pulpit ministers"). As Jesus is head over the church, so a (senior or executive) pastor is head over his or her church. Or should be. Things get complicated, however, when the real power in a church rests, officially or otherwise, with a lay committee or board of elders.

The pastor is accountable to God for the flock he or she shepherds. By extension, volunteers should submit themselves to his or her authority.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites