Do Churches Need Websites? [Archive] - The Church Webmasters' Forum

mrbelfry

Tue., Sep. 6, 2005, 4:55 am

My church needs a website because otherwise they wouldn't pay me ;-) and also for the following reasons:

1) Because people who come to our churches don't listen to the notices! The website provides a relatively cheap way to have lot's of easily organised information and news about a church accessible to a huge number of people.

2) Because people who don't come to our churches need information about our churches - see above. A website provides quick an easy access to information including service times etc. There are a number of people in my church now who came because they looked at our website.

3) Because most of us secretly feel that organisations and companies without websites are 'small-fry'

4) A lot of money is given via the internet and churches need that finance (I think David has already posted figures somewhere on the site)

5) I wouldn't have met anyone on this board otherwise - I can easily find information about my brothers and sisters in Christ across the globe to encourage and strengthen me. The church does a lot of great stuff around the world and a website is a great way to let the rest of the world know about it.

6) Because people use the internet we need to have a presence on it

7) Lots of other great reasons that I can't think of right now.

However I would say a church needs a good website rather than a website. Some of the websites I've done for my church would have been more effective not being online! Websites can make a church look unattractive as much as attractive.

cwgraves

Tue., Sep. 6, 2005, 2:31 pm

However I would say a church needs a good website rather than a website. Some of the websites I've done for my church would have been more effective not being online! Websites can make a church look unattractive as much as attractive.
I couldn't agree more! One of the main reasons I decided to take a sabbatical from my church and focus on launching my web ministry was to help churches have a GOOD, professional, quality website that doesn't look like it was designed by people with no business designing websites.

Like David, I have viewed literally thousands of church websites and have not found very many good ones. You can definitely tell which ones were designed by professionals and which ones were put up just to have a website.

The Bible says, "do EVERYTHING as unto the Lord!" (emphasis mine). We are Christs' ambassadors. We represent Him to our congregation and to the world. If someone purposely goes to our site, or stumbles upon it, we should present a professional image to the visitor - regardless of the size of the church.

David Gillaspey

Tue., Sep. 6, 2005, 3:08 pm

Like David, I have viewed literally thousands of church websites and have not found very many good ones. You can definitely tell which ones were designed by professionals and which ones were put up just to have a website..Hi,

First, let me say thanks to everyone for the wonderful responses that have been posted to this thread and other threads on the forum. (The "conversation starter" about the Gospel, for example, has seen many excellent posts lately.)

I want to respond to Curtis' comment (reproduced above) by saying that, in my opinion, the problem with so many church websites is not that they're poorly designed per se, but that they use many techniques that were once considered "cutting edge" (even by professionals) but are now considered dated and not used any more. These techniques include animated gifs, rainbow colors, frames, heavily patterned backgrounds, etc.

These websites could become at least acceptable in quality (if not professional in appearance) if such outdated website design techniques were discontinued. As it is, the dated appearance of such websites I fear causes web-savvy unchurched people to turn away.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

cwgraves

Tue., Sep. 6, 2005, 3:21 pm

...is not that they're poorly designed per se, but that they use many techniques that were once considered "cutting edge" (even by professionals) but are now considered dated and not used any more. These techniques include animated gifs, rainbow colors, frames, heavily patterned backgrounds, etc.
David,

Many of the churches that I've observed aren't flashy or don't have animation (gif's or flash), they are simply a picture of the church building and some text. No design thought at all!

The other side of things are exactly what you mentioned - too much "eye candy".

I have had many discussions with my peers on what constitutes "good design" from "poor design". As you can imagine, there are many different opinions.

In some of the classes that I have taught on the subject, I emphasize that the "eye candy" should only be used when it helps "sell" the product. In the case of a ministry, it must augment the message. Using CSS, we can achieve graphic-like look and feel with few graphics.

Studies have shown, as I mentioned earlier, that you have 3-5 seconds to grab the users attention. Many users still have dial-up modems. It is hard for us with high speed DSL or cable modems to understand why the users are leaving when our home page takes 12 minutes just to load the pictures!

As I've mentioned in many of my other posts, I am trying to change the way people think about church websites. If we think of them as a ministry, just like the youth ministry or adult ministry, then we will certainly put more effort into them.

David Gillaspey

Tue., Sep. 6, 2005, 3:32 pm

As I've mentioned in many of my other posts, I am trying to change the way people think about church websites. If we think of them as a ministry, just like the youth ministry or adult ministry, then we will certainly put more effort into them.A point with which I completely agree.

We'll know that we're where we need to be when churches everywhere consider it just as important to have a full-time (paid) webmaster as it is to have a full-time (paid) youth pastor, full-time (paid) children's pastor, full-time (paid) worship leader, etc. (To the extent that the budget allows; the majority of U.S. churches are under 75 members in size, so a paid staff webmaster will never be possible for them unless Bill Gates joins.)

[Added later:]

My original statement above completely ignores the third possibility, that of a church hiring a contractor or web design company to create and/or maintain its website. (The other two possibilities are volunteer webmaster and paid staff webmaster.) Sorry about that, Curtis.

To make my point another way: I look forward to the day when there's as many job openings for webmaster on http://www.churchstaffing.com as there are currently for youth pastor, worship leader, senior pastor, etc.

[End added material.]

(See also the thread http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/forums/showthread.php?t=171.)

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites.

cwgraves

Tue., Sep. 6, 2005, 5:44 pm

...when churches everywhere consider it just as important to have a full-time (paid) webmaster as it is to have a full-time (paid) youth pastor, full-time (paid) children's pastor, full-time (paid) worship leader, etc. (To the extent that the budget allows...
In working with some of the ministries, and christian businesses, I will sometimes work out a payment plan or bartering plan instead of making them pay a large amount up front.

In fact, I use the phrase, "Don't let money be the thing that stops you from having a professional website." And I stand by that statement. If they REALLY can't afford it (I often show them how they can afford it by using the computer to automate many of their tasks), then I will let them take up a love offering, or add $10 a month to the hosting fee. In the case of a particular ministry I'm working with, they have a monthly newsletter. They asked their subscribers for donations towards the website.

There are ways around the "money" issue. However, I won't begin even a high-level design on a churches website until there is a firm comittment in writing along with at least the promise to pay. I still bill them the expected amount. Whenever they send me a donation, I subtract it from the development fee.

Bob96

Tue., Sep. 6, 2005, 8:31 pm

You might as well ask do churches need telephones or does the gospel need to be communicated or do witnesses to the glory of God in Jesus need to be actively sharing his story? Websites are tools of communication. They can be used like most such tools for good or ill, for profit or sharing, for propaganda or for the sharing of truth. Of course they have to be done well to attract viewers and to hold their attention long enough to deliver the message. That is hard to do these days, because viewers are overwhelmed by people clamoring for their attention through every medium of communication. The issue of pay for a webmaster is of no consequence. Paying for a service or a messenger doesn't improve the service or validate the message. The primary question regarding church websites is what do they need to do to effectively communicate the gospel to a world of individuals who may not initially understand it or by their nature want to make a personal response to it? The issue is not a matter of what technical tool can we use; the issue is what do we have to communicate, what is our message? If it is more self-serving noise and meaningless babble, even a well-designed website won't get the attention that is required to plant and to cultivate and to water the "seed" of God's Word. As our church's volunteer webmaster, I'm constantly striving to improve the appeal and the message of our website, but its basic effectiveness will ultimately depend upon God's blessing and not my skill, but I strive to do the best that I can with the gifts for communication that God has given to me that He may be glorified. What are we doing with this tool that God would be pleased to bless? That is the question. Amen.

cwgraves

Tue., Sep. 6, 2005, 9:23 pm

The issue of pay for a webmaster is of no consequence. Paying for a service or a messenger doesn't improve the service or validate the message.
We certainly hear your heart! It is an understood preconception that the message is the same - the good news of Jesus Christ!

However, we have been discussing the difference between a website and a web ministry. We have talked about the importance of the web ministry and how it should be held in the same regards as a youth ministry.

As a professional developer for the past 23 years, I would hope my skills would be noticably higher than someone with little to no experience. Now, I've worked with people with lots of experience who couldn't design a decent website, so I agree that hiring a professional doesn't AUTOMATICALLY guarantee a better site. But, I would rather go to an experienced heart surgeon than a volunteer who read a book and says, "Oh, I can do that!"

We agree, the message can't change. However, the METHOD certainly can and should change. Some of my fellow pastors have a hard time with this one!

flutem3

Wed., Sep. 7, 2005, 12:02 am

David wrote:

"We'll know that we're where we need to be when churches everywhere consider it just as important to have a full-time (paid) webmaster as it is to have a full-time (paid) youth pastor, full-time (paid) children's pastor, full-time (paid) worship leader, etc. (To the extent that the budget allows; the majority of U.S. churches are under 75 members in size, so a paid staff webmaster will never be possible for them unless Bill Gates joins.)"

Our church is much larger than 75 members, but it does not have a paid youth pastor, children's pastor, worship leaders, etc. And I feel certain that money would be budgeted for those positions before money will be budgeted for a web design professional.

Actually, I have seen some dreadful sites done by paid designers who do it because they are paid to...not necessarily because of a love of God or a deep abiding passion for spreading the Gospel. It is a job.

To my dying day I will never have the expertise that many of you have. I know that we "should do our best for the glory of God." But don't you think that people with lesser skills are trying just as hard to do that even if you think the results are lamentable. We do try just as hard as anyone else. It is the widow's mite...except that we are talking about website design. Just like you I have seen some church websites that I thought were atrocious, but I figured they were that way because someone was learning how to design them. Or a church decides that it wants to have a church website and ropes some poor soul into doing it. I know of that happening frequently which doesn't make it right, but it happens all the time. There is not enough expertise to go around. Idealistically that should not happen, but realistically it occurs all the time.

Someone mentioned that that the index page should be relatively clean, little scrolling, fit it one box, etc. I disagree. When I go to a website index page, I expect it to tell me what the site is about. If it doesn't, I leave...and I have left lots of them.

There is also a lot of disagreement on what constitutes good website design. Nobody seems to know that I can tell for sure. And whether anybody else likes our church website, the church members do. But I am the one who knows it needs to be much better, and little by little it will be. I know I sound cranky. I feel cranky. It just feels like people with lots of experience jump all over those of us with minimal experience who are trying our best to do a good job

Carol

David Gillaspey

Wed., Sep. 7, 2005, 12:29 am

I am trying to avoid the words which automatically seem to chase people away. What I am trying to do is both very basic and very difficult for me to do. It is necessary for me to re-examine my own ideas and thoughts so that I don't bias the website too much. It is definitely a Christian website. But I want those who are not Christians to feel welcome...and hopefully take another look at their beliefs and faith or to acquire a curiosity to question more.Hi Carol,

You might also consider the influence of postmodernism upon today's generation. See http://www.coastlandschurch.org/about_values_postmodern.html for a quick primer.

Then try to borrow this book

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310245648

through your local library system or church library. (The ISBN number is 0310245648.)

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Website

cwgraves

Wed., Sep. 7, 2005, 7:40 am

Carol,

I knew that some of my comments would raise eyebrows and possibly come across as offensive. I apologize. I'm not trying to say that someone with less experience is inferior. I was only responding to the comment that hiring someone with experience doesn't make a difference.

Everything that I mention on this forum is backed up with years of experience and lots of trial and error. I have the heart of a pastor, but also have the technical skills required to get the job done.

I really don't like mentioning this, but on one particular project, I fought for several weeks to get a customer to design their site the way I suggested. I finally showed them the logical reason why to do it that way. I backed it up with plenty of documentation. Their site went live in January and by April, they had sold over $10 million dollars worth of their product! That's just 3 months!

I have seen church websites that have struggled and when we applied some of the techniques I've talked about in other posts, and used the marketing techniques I've talked about, the site is now thriving. The web logs are full! People are coming to the site and posting messages, reading information, looking at pictures, etc... It's an active living website!

I'm only here to help! If the skills and techniques the Lord has given me can help other people with their web ministries, that's why I'm here!

flutem3

Wed., Sep. 7, 2005, 11:01 am

Curtis wrote:

"Everything that I mention on this forum is backed up with years of experience and lots of trial and error. I have the heart of a pastor, but also have the technical skills required to get the job done."

Hi, Curtis,

I understand that. You have said it over and over...I believe you. And I also understand that you want to help.

My comments were directed to people in general--not just to you. You haven't been on here very long nor have I for that matter. But one of the things I have noticed over time is that the less skilled people have stopped posting for the most part. At least from what I can tell that is true.

Those are the precise people that you and others want to help, but if you scare them away, you (plural) are preaching to the congregation again which is what you and others don't want. All of you want to reach those of us who need your skills and expertise!!

As for me I am too stubborn to stop posting, and I enjoy the debate. And I learn valuable information...but not without feeling pummeled from time to time. I am feeling pummeled on behalf of all of us who try hard without many skills. :)

Carol

PS Curtis, if you really feel that you shouldn't mention something, you probably shouldn't. It has taken me 64 years to learn that. It's like saying,"I don't mean to be offensive, but..."

David Gillaspey

Wed., Sep. 7, 2005, 11:28 am

Our church is much larger than 75 members, but it does not have a paid youth pastor, children's pastor, worship leaders, etc. And I feel certain that money would be budgeted for those positions before money will be budgeted for a web design professional.Yes, I agree. But the problem is that few churches of any size consider the web ministry of such worth that they are willing to hire a full-time church webmaster. The proof of this is the scarcity of ads for church webmasters on http://www.churchstaffing.com compared with ads for other pastoral positions. (To be sure, at many churches the responsibility for the website is part of the I.T. director's job or the Communication Director's job, so this is not a completely accurate picture of the current state of affairs.)

There is also a lot of disagreement on what constitutes good website design. Nobody seems to know that I can tell for sure. There is an established body of knowledge about what constitutes good design in general, which one can acquire by reading or schooling. However, those principles can be applied in countless variations ? this is called creativity. The searchable database on my website, comprised of more than 500 well-designed church home pages, is a celebration of the diversity of good website design. (What we can't agree on ? and don't need to agree on ? is the single right way to design a church website.)

There's also the problem I described above that five to 10 years ago, in the early and dark days of the internet, there was a lot of things being advocated as "good" design. Many of these techniques are no longer considered good design, and their use on a church website dates the website. This illustrates the fact that what constitutes "good" design continually evolves over time. It's important that church webmasters keep up to date with this.

So, to sum up, it's important to realize that there are some basic design principles that don't change, but also, there are some design techniques (for print or web) that fall into and out of style. This is because design evolves over time, just like music, fashion, hairstyles, and more.

Robin Williams is an author who writes very popular books on the subject of design, both for print and for the web. Her books are written for people who are not naturally gifted in design; that's why her books are so popular and useful.

I had planned to take an online class this fall on website design (actually, the course was about how to design online courses but that requires good design, doesn't it?). One of the textbooks for the class is Williams's best-selling book The Non-Designer's Web Book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201710382) (2nd ed.). I bought the book from Amazon.com but I'm not now going to take the class (there was a problem with my obtaining federal student loans). So I have this brand-new book I won't be using. In January, when I now hope to take the class, the instructor will surely choose to use the 3rd ed. of Williams's book instead. This edition was released just a few weeks ago ? too late to be used for the Fall 2005 course.

So I have this book that I think would be helpful to you, that I will not be using myself because in a few months I'll have to buy the 3rd edtion. I would love to give this book to you, if you'll accept it. (I'll get your address from you offline.)

Finally, I want to say how much I and all of us on the forum appreciate your comments. You keep us grounded in reality: You are always quick to let us know when we are talking over your head. That's important to keeping this forum relevant to the audience at which both my website and this forum are ultimately aimed: not "experts" but the average (volunteer) church webmaster who desires to improve his or her skills.

(Having said that, I am very appreciative that people who do have some expertise in this field are gracious enough to take time from their busy schedules to participate in this forum and share their expertise. I myself have learned much from them.)

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

David Gillaspey

Wed., Sep. 7, 2005, 11:46 am

... one of the things I have noticed over time is that the less skilled people have stopped posting for the most part. Hi Carol,

As forum host and administrator, it would be easy for me to take personally the fact that many people come and (then) go from this forum. But I think the reality is that this merely reflects a truth about all forums: at any given time, only a very small percentage of members are ever active. Most people join a forum like this and post because they have a particular problem or issue about which they need help or about which they wish to make a comment. After they have received help (or not), or have made a comment, they go on with their busy lives, and do not again participate in the forum.

I remain proud of this forum, however. On many of the forums I've visited, the threads consists of many short, one- or two-sentence replies back and forth among members. That's not bad ? it reflects the nature of the type of issues involved. I'm proud (and pleased) that the majority of posts on this forum are thoughtful and insightful.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

cwgraves

Wed., Sep. 7, 2005, 11:49 am

Yes, I agree. But the problem is that few churches of any size consider the web ministry of such worth that they are willing to hire a full-time church webmaster.
I'm hoping to change some of that thinking. We're gaining ground!
This illustrates the fact that what constitutes "good" design continually evolves over time. It's important that church webmasters keep up to date with this.

So, to sum up, it's important to realize that there are some basic design principles that don't change, but also, there are some design techniques (for print or web) that fall into and out of style. This is because design evolves over time, just like music, fashion, hairstyles, and more.

I agree that using "cutting edge" techniques changes over time, but I am from the school that says, don't use cutting edge techniques unless it is necessary to help augment the message (or sale). Good design is good design without regards to technology. I think part of the problem is a misunderstanding of the word "design". I'm not using the word design to mean just the graphical layout of a site.
Robin Williams is an author who writes very popular books on the subject of design, both for print and for the web. Her books are written for people who are not naturally gifted in design; that's why her books are so popular and useful.I completely agree! I have read many of her books and use some of the techniques and principles in one of the website design classes I teach.

flutem3

Wed., Sep. 7, 2005, 12:20 pm

Hi Carol,

As forum host and administrator, it would be easy for me to take personally the fact that many people come and (then) go from this forum. But I think the reality is that this merely reflects a truth about all forums: at any given time, only a very small percentage of members are ever active. Most people join a forum like this and post because they have a particular problem or issue about which they need help or about which they wish to make a comment. After they have received help (or not), or have made a comment, they go on with their busy lives, and do not again participate in the forum.

I remain proud of this forum, however. On many of the forums I've visited, the threads consists of many short, one- or two-sentence replies back and forth among members. That's not bad ? it reflects the nature of the type of issues involved. I'm proud (and pleased) that the majority of posts on this forum are thoughtful and insightful.

Oh, David,

I didn't mean that as a criticism of you. This is a wonderful forum. And I agree with your observations about people coming and going. That happens on UMConnect too. It just seemed to me that it is the most skilled who have stayed. I could be completely wrong in this observation, of course.

If that is so, that is a shame because so much wonderful information comes up here. In fact, it is terrific. This is my favorite forum. Sometimes, I just feel absolutely lost...and that is not a bad thing. It makes me aware of all the things I need to learn. It just can feel overwhelming sometimes.

Carol

Bob96

Thu., Sep. 8, 2005, 4:47 pm

In response to my previous comment, cwgraves said

We have been discussing the difference between a website and a web ministry. We have talked about the importance of the web ministry and how it should be held in the same regard as a youth ministry.

In my life I have served as an ordained professional minister in a variety of special ministries, including that of a Minister of Christian Education with special responsibilities for youth work. I was a college chaplain, a pastor, an editor on the national staff my denomination. I have been a communication specialist and marketing professional in two of our denomination's schools, and I have been employed as a professional fund raiser.

It appears from many comments that the question being addressed in this topic is not "Do Churches Need Websites?", but "Do Churches Need Professional Paid Webmasters?" Is that really the question?

Whether or not the position or ministry of serving as a webmaster is held in the same regard as that of a youth minister or anyother individual engaged in some form of ministry shouldn't be our concern. That issue appears to me to be self-serving, like James and John appealing to Jesus for special seats in his kingdom. Our concern should be with our gifted abilities to deliver the message that God has given to us through this great tool. How can we help each other to effectively deliver this message? I think that is the purpose of this website.

It is good to share with you in this special ministry. May God bless us all!

flutem3

Thu., Sep. 8, 2005, 7:26 pm

Bob wrote:

"Our concern should be with our gifted abilities to deliver the message that God has given to us through this great tool. How can we help each other to effectively deliver this message?"

AMEN and that includes the least of us. Just think. I think it is terrific that I now know how to make the above print in blue and make the amen in bold type. I didn't know that until just recently. And I can underline too, but it takes me forever to do it with the html. But I can do it now!

Carol

By the way can somebody tell me what those little <> are up above and how they are used to "wrap around text?" I mean up above on the page on which we write the post. And why would I want to use it? :D The margins on the box are uneven...I mean between the box and the edge of the page.

David Gillaspey

Thu., Sep. 8, 2005, 7:52 pm

Hi Bob96,

As forum administrator, I poised the question to which we are responding. I have found these "conversation starters" to be moderately successful in encouraging people to join the forum and make posts. Having said that, I haven't thought of new question all summer (suggestions are welcome!). This particular question was sparked by a member's comment that his or her pastor was afraid to put sermons online. (Which, of course, is a narrower issue than whether churches need websites at all.)

Yes, the question really is, "Do churches need websites?" And yes, it was intended to be provocative. I allow responses to morph as they will, for the most part, so some posts have touched on the question of whether a webmaster should be a staff position or not.

I appreciate your responses to the question. Indeed, I am truly grateful to all have been willing to take time from their busy schedules to participate in this community.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

Bob96

Thu., Sep. 8, 2005, 7:58 pm

Carol wrote: By the way can someone tell me what those little <> are up above and how they are used to "wrap around text"?

I'm not sure that I got the above statement set to appear in blue, as I sought to do. But that is the point that I'm trying to make in my comments. And I don't really know why these little characters <> should be put around some text in this forum.

Carol, the important thing about your ministry as a webmaster is not how well you know how to use the tools of this ministry to configure and design websites, but the content of your message! What "good news" do you have to proclaim right now?

Let me put it this way: It is not nearly as important for us to know how to display on a web-page the time for our next meeting at church to our viewers as it is to give them a personal reason why they should come to that meeting.

flutem3

Thu., Sep. 8, 2005, 8:25 pm

Bob wrote:

"Carol, the important thing about your ministry as a webmaster is not how well you know how to use the tools of this ministry to configure and design websites, but the content of your message! What "good news" do you have to proclaim right now?"

Bob, I know you are right about that. I, unknown to all of you probably, have been reacting to a couple of people who have really been on my case to build a website "properly." These people are not on this forum. It just drives me up a tree because I know I have the "smarts" to learn 1st Page or whatever, but I don't have the energy. They really come down hard on the Homestead software which I now understand bloats the load time of a page, but it enables me to build the page in the first place.

I apologize if I have gotten cranky. I also have "the bug" so I probably shouldn't be writing at all lest I say something I regret. Maybe I better shut up until I feel better. Of course, then again, that might not help at all. :D

Carol

flutem3

Thu., Sep. 8, 2005, 8:38 pm

Bob also wrote:

"Let me put it this way: It is not nearly as important for us to know how to display on a web-page the time for our next meeting at church to our viewers as it is to give them a personal reason why they should come to that meeting."

You are absolutely right. I have not looked at most things from that perspective...some things but not enough. But I still need to know that the events are going to occur. I can't tell people or encourage them to join the Disciple Series if somebody neglects to tell me it is going to happen. That is part of the problem I have.

I will be glad when I am able to go to church, but that will be in another two years when they get the elevator in. I am doing all of this stuff by phone now. I try to keep up with what is going on, but I have to rely on others to keep me informed. If I were in church, I would be able to check with the congregation about upcoming events even, and I could also do some good PR work which has not been done except by proxy. But I sure think you are right about it. Maybe I can figure a way to work better with the situation since you brought it more clearly to my attention. Thanks!

Carol

Bob96

Thu., Sep. 8, 2005, 9:49 pm

Carol wrote: "I am doing all of this stuff by phone now. I try to keep up with what is going on, but I have to rely on others to keep me informed. If I were at church......"

Carol, if you were at church it wouldn't be any different. Believe me, I'm at church a lot. You don't have to be at church to be your church's webmaster. I do ours from my desk at home. All of the information that you need from others can be sent to you by email, that is often more convenient than the phone. The issue for you and I as webmasters is not one of technology, it is the issue of communication, particularly the communication of the gospel.

I know the challenge of learning to use the technological tools, editors of all types, and various computer languages. I've just spent months of hard work learning how to write HTML code without using a WYSIWYG editor, and setting up a newly designed website for our church using CSS and PHP includes. But all of this work and study won't really accomplish much for me or our church if I can't make a good connection with our viewers in regard to the message that I provide on our website.

Take the time that you have now at your home to clarify and strengthen your own understanding of the message that God has called you to deliver. Put it into your own words that can make sense to someone who is not a believer, who does not go to church, and who may not even recognize the authority of the Bible. Don't depend upon me or someone else to tell you who Jesus is, or what salvation is all about, or what faith is.

You can even share in a personal ministry of evangelism from your own computer, if you want to. Contact the ministry of Fish the Net and volunteer for their Online Evangelism Ministry Team. It is a great ministry. Anyway, there is a lot that you can do and learn right now. I hope you get to feeling better soon. In the meantime, God bless you.

flutem3

Thu., Sep. 8, 2005, 10:45 pm

Bob wrote:

"You don't have to be at church to be your church's webmaster."

I know, Sir Robert. I have not been able to go to church for over twenty years. Everything I do is done from my computer at home. And I get all the information from email and phone.

I just know if I were at church, people would not forget quite so easily because I am right in front of their faces. :D And one thing I would have liked to be able to do was to tell the congregation about the website as I was building it, adding features, etc. I am a good sales rep when I believe in the product which I do.

I know as time goes by the product will become better...better in the ways we have been discussing. It is already better than when I first began because I have learned so much. And it is FUN, and as all of us know, it can be frustrating.

I guess my frustration is showing through. I don't know of any other place where I can tell people how I feel about what I am doing, have them pay attention, and understand what I am talking about. Thanks to all of you for that opportunity. You are my mentors, idea people, and support group as well!!

Carol

Bob96

Fri., Sep. 9, 2005, 9:19 am

Carol wrote: "If I were at church, people would not forget quite so easily because I am right in front of their faces."

Carol, that's not so! Believe me, I know. People are often known to ignore what is "right in front" of their faces. I've been teaching a SS class of adults for about 3 years now, and I often have to repeat something over and over again before they "get it", and even then it may not make much difference in their lives.

I'm sorry you're frustrated in your ministry, but it is important what you are doing from your home. I get frustrated too, because what I work hard to accomplish doesn't seem to make much of a difference in some people's lives. I think that is the situation with many individuals who minister for God in the "fields of the world". A lot of "seed" never germinates and grows to produce abundant "fruit".

Your "product" and mine is not our websites, it is our message, our "witness" to the glory of God in Jesus! Don't let the complexity of the technology of this tool discourage you! The early apostles, missionaries and evangelists and teachers and helpers, overturned the world without very much of this communication technology. Paul's letters and Luke's reports and those of others had to be passed from house-church to house-church by hand and the good news of Jesus spread by word of mouth.

The Greek word for "gift" in the NT is "charisma", and the Greek word for "power" for the use of God's gifts is "dunamus", from which we get the word "dynamite". The effective distribution of your "product" and mine will not be found in technology, but in God's "dynamite", the power of the Holy Spirit upon and behind and within the words of our messages over the Internet, the radio, TV, telephones (cell or "land"), in gatherings of people for worship or study, in letters, and in face-to-face conversation.

Do your best, as I strive to do, to make sure that your message expresses God's "charisma" and "dunamus", and when it does, it will make a difference in people's lives, whether you are "in their faces" or not. Hang in there!

flutem3

Fri., Sep. 9, 2005, 9:50 am

Bob wrote:

"it is our message, our "witness" to the glory of God in Jesus! Don't let the complexity of the technology of this tool discourage you! The early apostles, missionaries and evangelists and teachers and helpers, overturned the world without very much of this communication technology. Paul's letters and Luke's reports and those of others had to be passed from house-church to house-church by hand and the good news of Jesus spread by word of mouth. "

Hi, Bob,

I understand that. It is the reason I wanted to build a website in the first place. It is the witness that is important. I just let my frustration show through. I am only a human bean, after all. :D --a green human bean. And I can assure you that technology will not stand in my way. If it had, I wouldn't know enough to be writing to all of you here!!

I have a question which I would like to know the answer. I know that people wrote on parchment many moons ago and that there were scrolls. But I am not sure, but I think I heard/read/saw some place that Christians were some of the first people to bind pages, letters I would think, together. And those were some of the very first books called codex. I really need to look that up, but does anyone know for certain?

Thanks.

Carol

cwgraves

Fri., Sep. 9, 2005, 10:49 am

It appears from many comments that the question being addressed in this topic is not "Do Churches Need Websites?", but "Do Churches Need Professional Paid Webmasters?" Is that really the question?I can see how it might appear that the question could be pointed that way. I am not trying to take on any more projects!

My goal is to educate people, especially fellow pastors, about the NEED for a web ministry. I don't care who does it, as long as it is done with the same focus and attention as one of the other ministries.

I was the children's pastor for a particular church that only budgeted $500 a year for the children's department. At the annual business meeting, it was voted upon to spend (I can't remember the exact amount, but it was more than $1000) on new gas grills for the church patio. I was temporarily irritated, but held my tongue. I only stayed at that church about another year because their heart was not in the children's ministry.

I want churches to see the IMPORTANCE of a web ministry. It is not the graphics and animation that makes a website effective, it is GOOD, WELL WRITTEN content!

Let's look at the other side of the issue - hiring a professional developer. I know of a church in southern Missouri that paid over $12,000 for a web developer to program their website. It was not a bad site, but it never did what the church had in mind. The developer moved out of state and never worked on it again. The church paid LOTS of money for a site that they didn't like and had to find someone else to finish - and pay more of God's money!

That is exactly why I resigned from the church and decided to pursue this full time. I am seeing bad decisions on BOTH sides of this issue. I came up with a system that allows an administrative type person to maintain the site with no programming knowledge! They don't have to know anything other than how to use a word processor. I spend 2 hours training them when the site goes live and that is always enough time.

Please notice that I am NOT trying to sell anyone anything. I've been asked for information and haven't even pointed anyone to my websites. I want to make it VERY clear that I'm ONLY here to give advice.

cwgraves

Fri., Sep. 9, 2005, 10:54 am

I just know if I were at church, people would not forget quite so easily because I am right in front of their faces...I guess my frustration is showing through.Carol,

"Let us not grow weary in well doing..."

Thank you VERY MUCH for your dedication and hard work. We know how much work is involved in creating and maintaining a website. The Lord will reward you for your faithfulness!

If you want some personal attention, send me a private message and we can schedule something. I will help you work on a strategy that will take some of the burden off your shoulders and try to get the ball rolling.

Bob96

Fri., Sep. 9, 2005, 11:08 am

Carol wrote and asked about the Christian's use of the "codex" format for written documents in ancient times.

The book "The Bible Through the Ages" that was published by The Reader's Digest in 1996 has a chapter on the "Invention of the Book". According to its author

...codices existed by at least A.D. 98, when the Roman poet Martial completed his "Epigrams".

Christians and Jews apparently used this format for some of their writings. One of the most famous codex is the Codex Sinaiticus, which is a fourth-century copy of much of the Bible, both Old and New Testament writings.

It is commonly recognized that the Bible was the first book that was printed by Gutenberg on his press with moveable type in his shop in 15th century Germany.

So the technology for circulating God's word has progressed. I hope this helps.

flutem3

Fri., Sep. 9, 2005, 11:34 am

Bob wrote:

"Christians and Jews apparently used this format for some of their writings. One of the most famous codex is the Codex Sinaiticus, which is a fourth-century copy of much of the Bible, both Old and New Testament writings."

Can you imagine how Jesus, Paul, et. al. would make use of the internet...Paul in particular, I think. He would jump up and down with joy at having the ability to spread the Word world-wide!! Of course, that changes the gist of things a bit. But just imagine!!!

Carol

flutem3

Fri., Sep. 9, 2005, 11:42 am

Curtis wrote:

"I only stayed at that church about another year because their heart was not in the children's ministry."

Curtis, this statement is one which I understand but don't understand at the same time. Who is going to do children's ministry if a person dedicated to doing it leaves...even if the odds are way against him/her? But I can understand why a person would leave as well since it would seem that he/she is just hitting his/her head against a wall.

I know that the answer is that we go where God leads us...sometimes I am not too certain I hear Him very clearly. But I keep listening!!

Carol

cwgraves

Fri., Sep. 9, 2005, 11:48 am

Who is going to do children's ministry if a person dedicated to doing it leaves...even if the odds are way against him/her?Believe me, it was a tough decision. One bathed in many months (in fact, over 2 years) of prayer.

I should have explained I trained myself out of a job. I was used by the Lord for a season to build up the Children's ministry and train others to take over. My wife and I visited 3 or 4 years later and they have completely changed their thinking! The children's ministry is now the focus of the entire church staff.

Sometimes the Lord has to get us fired, laid-off, or to resign, to get us to move onto something better! I left that church and went on to another church that had been praying for a children's minister for 2 years. (About the same amount of time that I felt the Lord telling me to leave the other church). God is GOOD!

flutem3

Fri., Sep. 9, 2005, 2:50 pm

Curtis wrote:

"I should have explained I trained myself out of a job. I was used by the Lord for a season to build up the Children's ministry and train others to take over. My wife and I visited 3 or 4 years later and they have completely changed their thinking! The children's ministry is now the focus of the entire church staff."

Good grief, Curtis. That does make a big difference, doesn't it? And is that kind of focus working for the children? I hope so!! It sounded to me like you just left. I am glad to see that you prayed before you left. :)

I have found that God needs to hit me over the head with a 2 x 4 to get my attention at times! It may hurt, be puzzling or confusing for awhile, but it is always effective...no doubt about it at all. And at other times God seems to drag me by the nose to the websites I need to find on the internet. It is a remarkable experience!! But, I might add, it is very real. I can't explain it, but it happens frequently. And it is great!! That's how I ended up here. I was no more looking for a place like this or the Great Church Websites website than the man in the moon. But here I am.

Carol

PS Does anyone know how I got to be a bronze member? I just noticed that. :-)

cwgraves

Sat., Sep. 10, 2005, 12:09 am

...is that kind of focus working for the children? I hope so!!
I have found that God needs to hit me over the head with a 2 x 4 to get my attention at times!Carol,

Thanks for asking about the children! I love them and pray for them often. They seem to be doing well and the children's ministry seems to be exciting for them! Praise God.

Sometimes I also have a thick head that God has to reach down from heaven with his finger and thump - like checking to see if a melon is ripe! I am usually slow to act, when it is a major decision like resigning from an active ministry and moving on to another not so active ministry. But, He opens the doors He wants opened and closes the ones He wants closed!

I also stumbled upon this website while praying about the web ministry that I've started. I am thankful for it and for some of the conversations I've had on this forum. It's just another reminder that He is in control, not me!

flutem3

Sat., Sep. 10, 2005, 12:39 am

Curtis wrote:

"the web ministry that I've started."

Curtis,

Where is your web ministry? I have heard you talk about it, but I don't know where it is or how it is expressed. Maybe I wasn't paying attention. I know some of what you said you wanted to do with seminars etc., but what are you doing to keep body and soul together? I know it isn't my business, but it seems that you took a huge leap of faith. Where are you landing?

Carol

cwgraves

Sat., Sep. 10, 2005, 12:14 pm

Where is your web ministry? I have heard you talk about it, but I don't know where it is or how it is expressed... I know some of what you said you wanted to do with seminars etc...I am located in the center of the known universe in Davenport, Iowa (that's a joke :) ).

I have been doing seminars, face-to-face consulting, teaching web design classes, and programming web sites for churches and small businesses for years. When I say that I have started a "web ministry", it means that I organized an official non-profit ministry and am in the process of filing the legal documentation. I assembled a board of directors and hope to have everything finalized (legally) soon.

I stated in another post that I am being vague on my contact information because I don't want any conflict of interests on this forum. I don't want people to think I'm only here to sell something. If you send me private email or messages, I will gladly setup a meeting to discuss things. I am available to help do design, work out concepts, etc..., but only if you initiate it.
what are you doing to keep body and soul together?I'm not sure what you're asking here. Just because we resigned as a staff pastor (to pursue God's leading in other areas), doesn't mean we've stopped attending service. We still regularly attend church services, if that's what you're asking!

flutem3

Sat., Sep. 10, 2005, 3:35 pm

Curtis wrote:

"I'm not sure what you're asking here."

Curtis, I figured you would go to church. Asking about "body and soul" is an old expression. If you have given up your job, how are you paying for shelter, food, etc.? That is what I meant. That is why I also said it was't really any of my business. :)

Carol

cwgraves

Sat., Sep. 10, 2005, 5:12 pm

Asking about "body and soul" is an old expression. If you have given up your job, how are you paying for shelter, food, etc.?I have never heard that phrase before!

I still work a full-time job as a senior programmer/analyst and application architect. I am doing the web ministry part time and working on raising funds to take it to the next level, if the Lord leads that way. Excitement is building, and I'm working a tremendous amount of hours (you may notice my posting times are all over the place).

I have several other programmers, graphic designers, 1 tech writer, and sales people all working trying to get it going. It is happening, but taking awhile.

seanhulin

Wed., Oct. 5, 2005, 1:41 pm

I am thrilled that you are beginning to change your thinking. I can tell that you see the difference between a web SITE and a web MINISTRY!

I understand the difference between a web site and an online community or a community that comes together on the web, but can some define and provide an excellent case study on someone doing web ministry (is this ministry towards non-christians helping with your site or you actually out preaching in chatrooms and holding online small groups (which really is a community)

Thanks,
Sean

flutem3

Wed., Oct. 5, 2005, 2:40 pm

David Gillaspey

Thu., Oct. 6, 2005, 12:06 am

I understand the difference between a web site and an online community or a community that comes together on the web, but can some define and provide an excellent case study on someone doing web ministry (is this ministry towards non-christians helping with your site or you actually out preaching in chatrooms and holding online small groups (which really is a community)Hi Sean,

Thanks for posting.

I'm not entirely sure I understand your question, but here goes. (I've been known to answer the wrong question, at great length, many times on this forum, but that's OK.)

On this forum, "web ministry" can have many meanings. It can range from the group of paid or unpaid servants at a church who design a website and/or upload content. The result may or may not be evangelistic. That is, it may be focused on believers and members, or it may be focused on unchurched people. (I believe a church website should be focused on unchurched people, but, realistically, that's not always the case and not everyone's priority.) But, in this sense, it's still a ministry regardless, just as much as, say, everyone involved in running sound and PowerPoint on Sunday mornings are in a "tech ministry" or "A/V ministry."

Another range of meanings focuses on using websites (and chat rooms and cell phone texting) to share the Gospel.

But discipling believers via online Bible studies and starting and maintaining online communities of believers is also a ministry, so there's a range of meanings there.

Again, I'm not exactly sure of your question, but I think #2 is the closest. So allow me to direct you to these websites:

http://ie-21stcentury.com/

the website of the (First Annual) Internet Evangelism for the 21st Century conference, held in Virginia (I think it was) back in April of this year (2005). From this website, you can order a DVD of the conference workshops. I have read the description of subjects discussed at the conference (but couldn't affort to attend), so I feel like you might very well get the answer to your question (you are looking for case studies) via this route.

Another resource is the Internet Evangelism Coalition:

http://www.webevangelism.com/Brix?pageID=10872

Hope these links are helpful to you.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites
(and forum administrator)

cwgraves

Fri., Oct. 7, 2005, 12:07 pm

donm1021

Tue., Apr. 11, 2006, 5:17 pm

Well, I am new here so I guess this as good as anywhere else to join in on the conversation here...

"Do Churches Need Websites?"

Well, I guess you could also ask does churches need to be listed in the phone book? Do they need to be listed in the local newspapers?

And the answer would probably be "No" - they don't have to be if you have a church that is "visible" within the community, maybe on the mainroad of your city, or one of the largest attended churches within your region.

However, more and more people are using the internet everyday in their search for things to fulfill their needs in everyday life. High-school students to soccer moms to retired grandfathers, are all online these days and most when they are searching for something are now turning to the internet rather than a phonebook or newspaper.

Most people today when moving to a new town or city, in their search for a church to attend, will now do a search for churches in their new city and read about what each church has to offer before ever physically stepping a foot inside the door.

More and more people are using the internet everyday when searching for items because a website gives more information than the phonebook offers without having to actually make a call and having to talk to someone.

Does churches need websites? No, not really... so, let's also remove our phone number from the phonebook too, oh, and that beautiful new sign that we put out front, we might as well remove that too...

No, we don't have to have any of these things... but what an enhancement they can be to our churches and ministries if used properly and designed well !!

That's just my two-cents... btw, does this count as a quality post? :-)

flutem3

Tue., Apr. 11, 2006, 10:46 pm

Hi, Donnie,

Welcome aboard!!! I think you will enjoy this forum. I learn new stuff all the time. And I frequently read stuff that I don't understand. However, little by little I am learning.

I do not think that there is a space limit on your posts. If there were, I would be in big trouble from time to time. :D

What are you going to be using to build the website? I am always curious because I use Homestead which lots of people don't like but which I am able to use it fine. I have learned how to use HTML snippets within the thing so even though the website needs lots of improvement design-wise, it has a decent amount of content especially for people who like to learn. However, there don't seem to be too many. :)

How is it that you are building the website for your church? In other words why are you building one? Who is your target audience? Do you have two definite goals for it? Is it to be static or dynamic? Who is going to maintain it? How are you going to obtain information? (That is a pain in the neck.)
In my opinion these questions need to be answered in a precise way before doing anything on the computer. I was told my a very knowledgeable man that everything that is on a web site should have a reason for being there...text, images, etc. I think he is right. I don't do really well with some of the above because when I started, I just started on the website. I did, however, set up goals before I began and selected a target audience, and I made paper mock-up of pages which weren't very good. However, it helps.

Do you have a computer literate congregation? That will make some difference depending upon what your goals are. Our congregation is not a very computer literate congregation. I know of one in California in which everyone is on the web and all their information goes out on their website. No paper newsletters are used, for example. It's late, and I am not being particularly precise in what I am saying.

I don't know if you have done a church web site...or any website before. I love it. I find it a great joy...and frustration, but I cannot imagine not doing it. But I know, as I live and breathe, that if I fall over dead tomorrow, the website will die with me. I am not being dramatic in saying that. Therefore, make sure people want it and that somebody can and will carry on with it if something should happen to you.

Glad you are with us. I told you...long letters are fine.

Carol

donm1021

Wed., Apr. 12, 2006, 2:26 pm

Thanks for the Welcome Carol - however, not entirely sure I understand your post and why you were asking me all of those questions?

I am actually a web developer and have been developing sites for almost 13 years. I have worked for CompuServe, America Online, and most recently Nationwide Financial/Insurance - building all of their company internet/intranet portals.

I recently have ventured out on my own and I am now freelancing and my specific target market is Churches, Ministries, non-profits, and small businesses that normally would not have the finances to afford the services of a secular professional design firm, but their desire is to have a high quality, professional site.

In my previous post, I was just adding my two-cents to the question, "Do Churches Need Websites?"

Thanks again for the welcome!

flutem3

Wed., Apr. 12, 2006, 3:20 pm

Donnie,

I am so embarrassed!! I thought from something you said that you were new to web site building. :D I was trying to be helpful? Well, I feel like an idiot. My apologies. I will read posts more carefully in the future.

You are welcome for the welcome!!

Carol

donm1021

Sat., Apr. 22, 2006, 11:24 am

ercoc

Tue., May. 9, 2006, 10:59 am

It is my firm belief that followers of Christ need to combat the darkness of this world with every tool that is at there disposal. The Internet is the future and will be a major part of everyday life. All churches should have a web site capable of presenting God's word. I am of the belief that a churches web site should not be as much for the members or for recruiting as it is for presenting God's word. Members get the word and news by attending their church and through their news letter or bulletin. A churches website efforts should be used to spread the word in the form of audio (mp3s) and video sermons and bible studies. When a person visits your website it should be full of God's word. God has promised if we plant the seed he will produce the fruit. The Internet is a world wide connection being used for much evil. Jesus said go out into all the world and preach the word. It is the churches mission to spread the word and trust God to bring forth the fruit. So, do churches need websites? What other method will you use to reach the lost on the Internet

BrotherRay
ercoc

Pixel Man

Wed., May. 24, 2006, 5:18 pm

I am the evangelism minister for a growing church in Phoenix. Our attendance right now is about 1500 on a weekend. We survey our new members to learn as much as we can about them and how they came to be with us. The percentage of people finding us through our web site is increasing every month. Many people move here from around the country and some families have found us from their old home even before they moved. They found their homes by searching online and they found a church home the same way. (How much more can you learn about a church from a web site than you can from a yellow pages ad!) The main thing I do with my phone book ad is list our web site!

If as a church you take the Great Commission seriously and you understand that God wants you to grow as a church, you must have a web site. All your advertising should direct people to it. Our web site averages about 2500 unique visitors each month. The average visitor spends 9 minutes on our site.

If as a church you would prefer to stick with the people you already have and you don't want the "pains" associated with growth, then by all means, don't get a web site!

Donnie's post was right on target if you ask me.

David Gillaspey

Thu., May. 25, 2006, 12:44 am

Hi Scott (Pixel Man),

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for posting. I trust that you will find this forum to be helpful to you in your ministry.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
Forum Administrator

srmcatee

Thu., May. 25, 2006, 1:13 pm

Curtis,

Very good point. We are working on "Web Ministry" accross the river from you at http://broadway.churchledger.com.

We have been working on an online community. At the moment it is slow going. Do you have any suggestions to pull the congregation into the site?

Steve

flutem3

Thu., May. 25, 2006, 1:45 pm

Hi, Steve,

I see that you have been here before but not since I have been here so welcome!!!

You asked how to pull people into the website. I wish I knew the answer to that. I have tried all kinds of things, but nothing seems to work too well. I have tried surveys to the membership which only 10 people answered. One person said he/she wanted church history. There are five pages of church history listed under....Church History. Another person wanted pictures of the construction/remodeling. I have an entire page listed under...Construction Photos.

I have tried Bible Challenge and Bible Trivia quizzes. The people who enjoy those already came to the website on a rather regular basis. I have all kinds of information for devotions, Bible Study, and research which seems to matter not a whit.

But we also do not have a congregation which uses computers a lot. And since I am unable to go to church, I have not been able to do the kind of PR which I would have done had I been there. I have warned the pastor to look out when the elevator is in and I am able to attend. There is going to be a PR blitz the likes of which nobody has seen before...well, maybe that is a bit extreme. :D Since I began at zero knowledge about 2+ years ago, it would have been great to have taught the congregation what was there as I was putting everything together. Of course, there is no guarantee that would have worked either.

Therefore, if anyone knows the answer to this question, whoop and holler. I want to know the answer too.

Carol

generalhavok

Wed., Aug. 9, 2006, 9:56 am

You asked how to pull people into the website. I wish I knew the answer to that. I have tried all kinds of things, but nothing seems to work too well.

Therefore, if anyone knows the answer to this question, whoop and holler. I want to know the answer too.
Carol

Hi, Carol...long time no see! :)

Our church averages around 200. Our website averages about 5 times that...and most of the visitors are NOT from our church. Even after 4 years, many don't know that we have a site, and most who do haven't visited. The average visitor views over 9 pages on the site.

Why, with such a bad site, do we get decent traffic? I'm convinced that it's the fact that the website is written with valid, semantic code. That means properly formed XHTML with CSS for both positioning and style. The reason is that search engines use an algorithm called 'code to content ratio', among many others, to determine the value of a website. When you use an externally-linked stylesheet, you remove the presentational code from the page (font color, font size, background images, etc). That gives you a better C2C ratio, and improves your ranking.

At one point, we were #1 on Google for the phrase "fun littleton colorado". That's pretty good advertising. I keep a list of the #1's for Google, Yahoo, and MSN...both to remind myself that I do know a little something about the web, and to show others the power of good code. I've seen similar results on all of my other websites, regardless of the content.

seanhulin

Sat., May. 19, 2007, 1:37 pm

[Administrator's note: This was held up in a queue to be moderated (approved) unbeknownst to me for some time; I just saw it today and immediately allowed it to be published. - dg]

In my honest opinion churches do not need websites. And neither do businesses, clubs, etc. However, websites have become the newest way to expand and enrich whatever we are doing whether it is drumming up more business or drumming up church members or playing games. The web is the most extensive teaching tool which has ever existed, and wise people use it well. Do we need websites? NO. Are we better off because they exist. YES.

I totally disagree. We are called as Christians to reach every person. To do that we must utilitize every possible channel that people use in large numbers. Your website has become the "Brand" at least the online "Brand of your Church" and is the first place anyone goes to find out who you are, what you believe, what you are doing and how to interact with you. In most cases people just throw up a website thinking any site is better than no site. That is where I also disagree, bad PR is very hard to over come.

We are also called to be great stewards of our resources. Websites, E-communication, Mobile and other "digital assets" not only get information out quickly, it also reduces expenses (both in material being printed, not having to answer all the phone calls, and the lost oppertunity of new church members and then their donations). In a 24/7 world with people traveling I would say if you are here to reach your community you will need to use all technology to serve them at your church, in their home, in their business, and when they are out of town. Church is a community, online is the extension of that.

wellis

Thu., Mar. 13, 2008, 6:49 pm

flutem3

Thu., Mar. 27, 2008, 3:31 pm

I think it is ridiculous for a church not to think that they need a website. I am a pastor and own a website design business specifically geared toward churches. Our current church is in the country and we have 2 families in our church that came become of our website. They are now all members and are one of our strongest tithers. If this website would have cost us $500 a month it was well worth it from the tithes that come in. They are also workers in the church...YOU NEED A WEBSITE PERIOD!

Hi and welcome,

I am a bit behind. I agree with what you have said. However, our congregation as well as pastors do not share your enthusiasm.

The congregation does not even realize that we have had people join because of the website. And they have become excellent workers in the church.

However, of this I am certain. Whenever I fall over dead (in 38 years since I have said from the time I was 16 that I would live to be 104), the website will die as well. Hopefully, in the intervening years I can drum up more support for it. But at this point the outlook is somewhat bleak. However, one of the fascinating things about the website is that we continue to increase the number of pages read...but not by people from our congregation.

If you have any suggestions, I would be happy to have them. I am glad to find one pastor who is as adamant as you are that churches NEED websites. I agree...even more than I did a year ago. And we need good, solid web ministry which I see as something somewhat different from a church website.

Bless you in your work,

Carol

exiruscreative

Fri., Oct. 3, 2008, 9:09 am

flutem3

Fri., Oct. 3, 2008, 3:24 pm

Wow yes definitely, a church MUST have a website...and not just a website. It must be something that encourage repeat visits and prolonged stays in your site and eventually convincing them to be a "physical" visitor.

Welcome, welcome, welcome, Lynne,

I agree with "not just a website." However, I have little idea on what to do which encourages very many repeat visitors. However, they are staying longer on the site. I have information which changes daily, weekly, bimonthly, and monthly. We have had two families join the church because of the websites...at least I have been told of two.

But, in general, I have great difficulty in getting the people of our church from visiting our website at all with a few exceptions. Yes, we are a graying church, but it seems to me that there are quite a number of seniors who use computers...just not so many in our church. I try different things from time to time, but most of them make little difference.

However, the average viewership has risen from the time I began. Now, it is between 300-400 people a month. At first, it was about 20 per month.

I also think we need to think in terms of "web ministry" as well as websites. I am not certain that "web ministry" can be done well on a church website.

If anyone has any ideas what would be good to have on a page for 4th and 5th graders to access and have fun and learn about the Bible at the same time, I would like to know what it is. We are finally getting a decent children's program going in our church. And I want to have something for those kids on the website.

I have had the "hard learn" at 67, but they are growing up with the computer. The church needs to be included for them on the website.

Thanks and welcome again. God bless you and everyone else on here,

Carol

Guitar Praise

Sun., Dec. 21, 2008, 11:07 pm

Forum administrator's note: Please see this post by me about Mr. Williams, which explains why I have banned him: http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/forums/showpost.php?p=5268&postcount=15

I think the problem with churches online is that Chritians don't spend as much time online as commercial businesses in the area of studying and ranking websites.
Because of this Church websites many times get ranked on Google poorly in the back of the pack.
But somewhere deep down in my spirit I don't feel that the Lord really wants His church online, but out in the community. Computers and TV take to much time away from serving the Lord in area of service unto God. If we spent more time, we could help those in need who are homeless and hungry. The hard part is only about 5 % of the church goers serve God in those ministries because we live in a fast world racing around everywhere , but the truth still is this, the average Christian spend 5 to 6 hours a day watching TV and hanging online.
Deep down I think we really know what is right.
I try to stay offline more these days......
God Bless...C ya GW Williams

flutem3

Mon., Dec. 22, 2008, 12:23 am

But somewhere deep down in my spirit I don't feel that the Lord really wants His church online, but out in the community. Computers and TV take to much time away from serving the Lord in area of service unto God. If we spent more time, we could help those in need who are homeless and hungry. The hard part is only about 5 % of the church goers serve God in those minitries because we live in a fast world racing around everywhere , but the truth still is this,the average Christian spend 5 to 6 hours a day watching TV and hanging online. Deep down I think we really know what is right.
I try to stay offline more these days......

Hi, G.W,
Welcome to the forum. It is a good place to be. I want to comment on your statement above. I have also given this question some thought. Jesus, when He was alive, used whatever was available to Him to spread the Good News. In His case it was story-telling, teaching in other formats, living the life we are to lead...a very hands-on, personal approach. There were no other real options.

I do believe that person to person contact is most effective in creating new disciples, church members, etc. How many of us invite others to church every week...and volunteer to pick them up and sit with them in church and introduce them to the other people? Our pastor asked that recently and suddenly everyone seemed to think the floor was a fascinating place to look.

However, I think Jesus would also jump at the use of a computer if He were alive and on earth today. I see Him as a person who uses the best possible tools that are available at a given time. The idea is for people to learn to know Jesus. The means by which they learn is irrelevant assuming they are learning the "correct" information.

One of the joys in my life is working on projects with a pastor in Manila.We have worked together on projects for the last 3 1/2 years. I never would have had that opportunity nor would he if it were not for the computer. He just received a grant from our church to assist in a Bible study program by computer. The students do not have money for computers so he is getting several so that they can share the information. I am the unofficial mentor of some of his students. I would be unable to do this any other way because I am semi-homebound.

But I understand what you are saying. It irritates me no end that people complain if a church service runs over an hour, but the same people can sit for two hours in a movie or three to watch football...and I love football. But football doesn't take precedence over church.

Once again, welcome. This is a good group of people. Many of them are actually very knowledgeable.

Carol

David Gillaspey

Mon., Dec. 22, 2008, 12:24 am

Hi GW,

Thanks for posting.

I don't feel that the Lord really wants His church online, but out in the community. Computers and TV take to much time away from serving the Lord in area of service unto God. Allow me to suggest that, just as there is a community of hungry and homeless, there is also a "community" of people who spend a lot of time online. Both communities, or populations, need the Gospel. A church website, blog, etc., is an important means of getting "out in [that] community" of internet users to share the Good News with them.

Another thought ... do you think it might be possible for a church to use its website to promote ministries to the homeless and hungry? So a church website can actually promote a church's ministries to the homeless and hungry. So the two ministries don't have to be antithetical, that is, they don't have to be considered as being in opposition to each other.

generalhavok

Mon., Dec. 22, 2008, 9:13 am

I think the problem with churches online is that Chritians don't spend as much time online as commercial businesses in the area of studying and ranking websites.
Having worked for years with churches and Christian non-profits, I can tell that you that you're right: they don't.

But somewhere deep down in my spirit I don't feel that the Lord really wants His church online, but out in the community.
I generally agree with that as well. We're to invest our time where it will bring the greatest return. However: in my opinion, online efforts fall into that category. The question isn't "should Christians be online a lot?" but "are NON-CHRISTIANS online a lot, and can websites be effective at reaching them?". I'm confident that the answer to both is yes.

Guitar Praise

Mon., Dec. 22, 2008, 4:52 pm

Hi I posted responce message and it never went though , I guess it was lost on here, and I don't have time to repost right now.
Maybe it will appear later?.....but I guess it was most likey lost.
Anyways ....Merry Xmas
GW Williams

David Gillaspey

Mon., Dec. 22, 2008, 5:32 pm

Hi I posted responce message and it never went though , I guess it was lost on here, and I don't have time to repost right now.Hi GW,

Your post above, #64, was duplicated by you — there were two identical posts. I deleted one.

Also, last night the server was slow. If one did not wait patiently, it's possible for a post to be lost.

Guitar Praise

Mon., Dec. 22, 2008, 7:10 pm

Forum administrator's note: Please see this post by me about Mr. Williams, which explains why I have banned him: http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/forums/showpost.php?p=5268&postcount=15

Hi I posted responce message and it never went though , I guess it was lost on here, and I don't have time to repost right now.Hi GW,

Your post above, #64, was duplicated by you — there were two identical posts. I deleted one.

Also, last night the server was slow. If one did not wait patiently, it's possible for a post to be lost.

Hi David, thanks for you help, but it was today at 3:45 that I tried to post it. The system frooze up.

I have been involved in Internet Marketing for 10 years and have developed a few methods and secret codes that I use to rank websites high 98% of the time.I only do this for my own websites and in commercial online businesses.

I have studied the the Internet since 1993 and have over 100 number 1 ranked websites on Google.

I know webmasters here are into Christian web designs, and I think that's great, but getting ranked is difficult even for top pro's and maintain rankings because there really is no software that can do the job right, mainly due to the fact that the Internet is ever changing daily. My highest ranked web sit is at number 1 out of near 190,000,000 page searches.....

My point is the Internet is a great place for business, if you have a product with high demand and you have a good supply. As an Internet Marketer I feel we must be 100% original in our ads and sell an item no one else can get there hands on.I am not a big fan of affilate marketing and believe that only 1 person in 5000 ever makes it big.Sure people may make a few dollars, but not much.

So you're wondering what my point is.........?

I believe that it takes so much time for the average person to learn Internet marketing that it's far better a chance to draw more people into a church if a church had an ad on the radio or TV. Infact in man hours it would cost much less to run a TV ad than to market a church online.

Sure people out there will disagree, but I have sold numbers of ebooks on how to market and sell online. I was the world largest seller of Solid Oak Tool Chests online for 6 years in a row. I also sold CNC factory Machines and parts online.

After years of selling I taught people how to sell online. I even sold ebooks on codes I had created and how to draw in huge amounts of Internet traffic that created huge cash flow.

So what I am telling you is I created a system that works, and I have upgraded it even father. It took years to do this. I just don't believe that the average church online can get high rankings and mantain them. Maybe they can get ranked in their local community or town online, but not world wide, and lets face it. The Internet is world wide so Our Ministry must also be world wide.And if we think it's not then we are fooling ourselves.

Please understand I am not selling my system, I use it myself, it took years to create and I now sell commercial Businesses in Real Estate world wide using this system to rank professional Business such as Gas Stations for sale, store,Office's and ect....

I promise I will not give out that info here either. I am not looking at making a sale of anykind here. But to just inform people that there are better ways to draw new people into the church.
First I believe only God draws people unto Himself........so if we are on the Internet and people are into chat lines, weird websites,UFO's and Porn, then they are not looking for God. Those people's hearts are not open to the Lord.

Yes.........I can hear people thinking now....but if they come across my ministry site,then maybe a seed will be planted. Sure you as a person can plant a seed, but if God doesn't water it, it will not grow.
As for myself, I also have a music ministry and sell my music world wide,I am well known as a gospel Rock,Blues Guitarist and singer in some circles, but because of how dishonest the Internet is I loose maybe 200,000 sales a year due to Internet Pirating of My music. People are free streaming my songs and others online.... Everyone wants a Freebee......but the cost is huge to us Gospel singers and song writers.It has destroyed the Market place for musicians.

I also have had my own radio programs, and from what I have seen, radio and TV does a far better job at a cost much less than having people around the clock trying to keep websites ranked. Sure my system works..........but I do not share this system, it's for business only and I don't use it in the ministry much.

But I will tell you this a high ranking website can bring in 50,000 people a week easy into the online business world. But a high ranked church site would be hard pressed to get 5000 in a year. And out of that 5000 hits, maybe 1 or 2 people will show up on a Sunday. With radio ads I have seen about 8 to 10 people a month walk throught the doors on average. And when I've done radio programs and announced my band and I were going to do a concert, we'd then pack the house and have 1000's walk through the doors of churches.

For 5 years we did this......and after every concert we feed the people and had food banks set up at churches for the homeless.......it was through the concerts I saw the most people come through the doors. What I realized is simple, the unsaved or non believers... will go to a concert when they wouldn't come to church on Sunday Morning. So what was the effect of concerts, at the end of a year?......a church could have maybe several hundred new members easy doing this. Sure only about 5 to 10% % of the people at a concert became members of the churches by the years end.But that's a lot,and the others would still keep coming back to our concerts.......I know God finds a way to draw people to Him, and as Christians we need to be there to pray for people, and to help them on a daily basis if needed.

This veiw point is my own..........but I some how can't help but think the Internet is not the best of places for a Christian to be.......it can side track us in our lives and keep us from truly reaching out to people for Jesus.

There comes a time that Internet web designing and ranking websites, takes away from our lives..........like I said I am not bragging about my IM or Internet Marketing Skills, but I have come to believe that the deeper I get involved online the more it takes away from my Christian walk with God, and if it does that, then how can I minister to people ?.....how can anyone if were not listing to the Lord.

Thanks GW Williams

flutem3

Mon., Dec. 22, 2008, 8:57 pm

Hi, CW,

I have received each of your email...twice. Maybe I am receiving yours for you. :)

Carol

Guitar Praise

Mon., Dec. 22, 2008, 10:54 pm

Forum administrator's note: Please see this post by me about Mr. Williams, which explains why I have banned him: http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/forums/showpost.php?p=5268&postcount=15

I'd like to say that at this point in my life I am making changes, I have been making my money or my living online for nearly 10 years and I feel I can better serve the Lord offline not online. I know if you read what I have stated you'd wonder why am I still online.

Simple truth is it can take some time re-adjusting a persons life and how they make thier living. My wife was hurt badly a few years ago in a car crash,which she never has been the same again.And it's taken me a few years getting back into the swing of serving the Lord again.So I am going through changes.

My hope is that I can better serve the Lord by giving away over 1 or 2 million CD's world wide for free. I feel it's what the Lord would want me to do.It's my hope that selling commercial Property online will make me enough money to spread the news of Jesus Christ by giving away CD's and do concerts.The Cd's may just be a CD, but it allows for doors to be open when I play guitar and sing in churches. In other words my CD is going to be my calling card, just like a business person hands out a card, then it's my hope that these people show up at our concert or that the CD touches thier hearts and they go to church.

Raising that kind of money won't be easy, but creating a ministry that says someone out there cares about you, is what is needed. And we need people from all walks of life doing this. We live in a world of Super Star Preachers, some making millions each year. I do wonder where their heart is while they live in thier mansions and drive there fanncy cars. While children go hungry in this world.They can say a laborer is worthy of his hire.......but there's a point of over doing it also.

I believe if we sacrifice our time and money,and get to where the people live , Jesus can and will use us in outreach ministries.

Now... maybe your wondering how powerful a ministry can be in music, listen to this.

Back in 1983 I recorded a radio program and had 8 songs on it. it was a half hour spot. Some how it vanished into thin air, the radio program was recorded live, and it was just a couple hours before it was to air and I was 10 miles from the radio station to where I was.

At that time I had a manager, and I must tell you he had the radio program to drop off at the radio station and lost it. Anyways I re-record the whole program and we barley made it to the radio station in time and I was very tired, it was stressfull. But we did it.

Then 2 weeks later my manager calls me, he says hey GW, I found your radio program I had lost. I ask him where was it? He said at the hospital, and I asked him what was it doing there?

He told me this story, about his uncle who was a drinking, cussing,worldly Marine type, almost like a John Wayne charter, the doctors told him he had 2 years to live with cancer, but......for some reason he got sick with TB.....Anyways my manager said for many years people had talked to his uncle about the Lord, but he wouldn't except Jesus as his savoir,he'd just cuss people out and tell them to get lost.... then suddenly one day...he was in the Hospital .....Only thing was he was Praising God, and happy as a lark, no one could figure out why?.......people were scratching there head. All they knew is he was listening to a tape recorder he had. And some one ask him how many tapes he had, and he replied only 1. They ask him if he'd like some more and he said no, I have enough to bless me.

Still no one knew what was going on..........well 2 weeks later after he died in the hospital they pickup his personal things and the tape recorder, anyways my manager still couldn't figure out how he died a Christian, because no one lead him to the Lord..........or ......is the real truth, the Lord called him home, Jesus was drawing him into salvation, and yes the tape was my radio program that was lost. God took my radio program that was lost and saved the lost. The Lord is truly great and can do anything. You can hide in a closet all your life, but if God is drawing you to Him, there's no where for you to hide.

Jesus knows where we all stand, so yes I believe it's Jesus who draws us unto Him, and not websites.

I am not saying a website won't work, but there's a lot of bad online, and if we are online are we then supporting evil?......it goes deeper than we think.

enough said................... C ya guys
Thanks GW Williams

P.S. I won't talk so much next time....bye guys