Ideal CMS

[iamcam]

If you had enough resources to have a custom CMS created for your church, what features would you have?

What features could you not live without?
What are the features that you'd want but never dreamed were possible?
Anything you can't stand in CMSs (things that can be done better)?

[David Gillaspey]

Anything you can't stand in CMSs (things that can be done better)?Yes, what I call "the template look." In my research of 1000s of church websites, I generally could spot a template-based design a mile away. A really great CMS would not have the appearance of being template-based.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[iamcam]

Ah - you mean the standard types that tend to come bundled with WYSIWYG editors?

Are there any sites whose design particularly stand-out as unique in your mind? How/why is that?

[NetMinistry]

You are so right. There are some pretty cookie-cutter designs out there. I don't think that it is a consequence of system constrains, although many CMS systems do have plenty of that. I think it is mostly due to the fact that CMS force web design firms into a "website factory" mode, due to the dramatic increase in business that use of a CMS can generate. Costs go down and productivity goes up, but you start losing time to be creative. So, it pretty easy to get into "750px mode" and make all your designs look the same.

I addressed the cookie-cutter issue when I designed my CMS by designing it to be completely flexible. Pretty much any design you can think of can work within out system.

JG

[mickmel]

If you had enough resources to have a custom CMS created for your church
I've spent months building our church site as a custom CMS from scratch, so I'll share some of my thoughts.

I find that a big problem with church websites is stale information. I wrote the CMS so that every item on the site (events and news items) have a "hide date" associated with them, so that they disappear automatically after the event is over.

I've spent a good chunk of my time working on our event system. If you add an event to a third-level page (like "Children/Youth" - "Youth Ministry" - "Bible Study"), it will show up on that page ("Bible Study"), it's parent page ("youth ministry"), the main event list, the calendar, and (optionally) the front page.

Every page (or event, if you choose) can have attachments uploaded to it. I have it so that each attachment is recognized and it puts a little icon next to it. If there is a PDF in there anywhere, it automatically puts the "you need the free Adobe Reader...." text below it.

There's a lot more to it, but most of the rest is pretty standard stuff.

[JackWolfgang]

Every page (or event, if you choose) can have attachments uploaded to it. I have it so that each attachment is recognized and it puts a little icon next to it. If there is a PDF in there anywhere, it automatically puts the "you need the free Adobe Reader...." text below it.

The icon maybe able to be done using Cascading Style Sheets. I've seen links to external sites linked that way.

[JackWolfgang]

The icon maybe able to be done using Cascading Style Sheets. I've seen links to external sites linked that way.

If you set the type attribute on each a tag, then you can do this. For example:

<a href="newsletters/200610Oct10.pdf" type="application/pdf">

Then you would write the following CSS:

a[type="application/pdf"]
{ background-attachment:scroll;
background-image: url("/images/pdf.png");
background-position: right center;
background-repeat: no-repeat;
border-color: transparent;
border-right-width: 5px;
padding-right: 13px }

You'll have to alter the path to the background image, the right border width, and the right padding to work for your situation, but that's how to do it automatically with no CMS, no JavaScript, just plain HTML & CSS.

[Faithhb_lutheran]

If you had enough resources to have a custom CMS created for your church, what features would you have?

What features could you not live without?
Blog/ Forum
Photo Galleries
RSS/podcasting/multimedia capabilities

What are the features that you'd want but never dreamed were possible?
Integrated web mail ( not really impossible, but the big ones don't have it)
Anything you can't stand in CMSs (things that can be done better)?
As others have said design is cookie cutter and harder to change, also little things like the title generators ( having a name created for pages instead of the actual application line that usually appears



That's about all I got

[JackWolfgang]

What about calendars?

[Faithhb_lutheran]

What about calendars?

To put calendars into the can't live without list I would need my ministry leaders to actually tell me when events are happening.

[flutem3]

To put calendars into the can't live without list I would need my ministry leaders to actually tell me when events are happening.

Hi, Kyle,

I had a terrible time with a calendar for ages until I got the church secretary to understand what I needed for the calendar. This last quarter I had all the information which I placed on Localendar.

Church secretaries are indispensable in coordinating a website, I think. Ours has been at the church for 16 years, and she is just a fount of knowledge...and where to find information. And then there are those times when I find out information first because I have more time to call around, and I share it with her. In theory, we shouldn't have to be calling around for the information. In practice, as I am certain all of you have discovered, the web site editor needs to call people in order to get the proper information in a timely fashion.

An example of the difficulty was just in the newsletter. It said that a Disciples Bible Study Group was being formed in the Fall. My goodness, we are well into fall. That is a weird thing to put on the website, but I did. I said that the time is TBA. I don't find that satisfactory to do it that way. But at least it is a heads up that the Bible study is going to happen.

In other words, I get most of the information on the calendar because of the work of the secretary and my own doggedness. :D

Carol

[Faithhb_lutheran]

Unfortunately our church's office manager isn't very good at that type of thing. While she can get work that is assigned to her done quicker then just about anyone we have a big problem getting her to communicate properly.

[flutem3]

Unfortunately our church's office manager isn't very good at that type of thing. While she can get work that is assigned to her done quicker then just about anyone we have a big problem getting her to communicate properly.

Hi, Kyle,

Who has talked to your office manager? Do you know whether she has ever designed a website before?

I would think that part of her job is communicating with the web site editor. Do you have any idea of what her hangup is?

I can think of one which would bug me to death if I were an office manager...double work. If she works as rapidly as you say, perhaps the website could go in a direction which does not depend on her input.

What I have discovered is that much of what is on our website people already know so I am basically putting it there for people who are coming into the area and are looking for a church. I think that is a valid reason, but as we all have discovered, the website can be much more than that.

It can truly be a ministry. Now, I do not purpose to know precisely how that is done, but I know that kind of outreach and ministry are needed. Other than children, for example, it has been a long time since someone joined our church on profession of faith. Nobody remembers the last time that happened. I asked.

How to do a web ministry is beyond my knowledge and wisdom at this time, but I always keep that in mind as I work on the website and other times as well. I do know that our logo will chase some people right off the site...even though there is material they might find useful.

The main thing in your situation would be to see if you can find out why the office manager does not communicate with you. I don't know if you can find out. But I am certain that somebody knows. Does she have difficulty communicating with other people? If she has a communication problem, there are undoubtedly others besides you who are having trouble with it. Or does she not want to communicate about the website but communicates well in other circumstances? Does she hate computers? Does the church website threaten her in some not...not really but could she feel threatened?

Maybe she is one of the kind of people who would rather do everything herself because it is simpler. My dad was like that. I tend to be a bit that way too. If I weren't, we would not have a website. Of course, some people would think that is a good thing. :-) Does she know the kinds of things you need and when? I don't know the answer. Every church is different as are the personalities and ideas. It took our secretary a long time to understand what I am trying to do. I will be certain that she does understand if I get an email with the next quarter's activities way before they happen. :D

There has to be an answer. Of course, it might be an answer that nobody wants!

Carol

[Faithhb_lutheran]

Carol,

Unfortunately the office manager we currently have at our church isn't suited for the position. She is an excellent secretary, but has no ability to work independently of daily orders. She has been asked repeatedly to pass information along to our web team, as she receives it from phone conversations and emails but she has problems following thru on any of it.

[flutem3]

Carol,

Unfortunately the office manager we currently have at our church isn't suited for the position. She is an excellent secretary, but has no ability to work independently of daily orders. She has been asked repeatedly to pass information along to our web team, as she receives it from phone conversations and emails but she has problems following thru on any of it.

Hi, Kyle,

I am sorry about that. Let me ask you something else. How important is the church website to the minister and the congregation? If you fell over dead this minute, and please don't, is there someone else who would run with it and keep it going?

I know that if I died so would the website. Nobody has displayed any interest at all in actually helping with the website itself.

There are a couple of things that I know that people have done before to try to break open communication. One is to go to the ad council meeting or board of directors or whatever they call themselves, tell them the situation, and ask for their advice.

Another which I am going to use is to send an email at the beginning of each month to the ministers and the heads of committees/projects and ask what is going on in the next month or two. Some churches have decent results with this method.

Another possibility is to say that people say they want a church website, but it is impossible to do without content. Therefore, if you don't get it, you're not going to chase it down any more. If they want the information of the website, they need to make certain you have it in addition to the church secretary. I have done this kind of thing with the Boy Scouts. They wanted a page, but I didn't get any assistance at all from the scoutmaster. I told one of the guys on the committee that I am more than glad to do a scout page, but I need content in order to do it. Now, I get the information for somebody named Cathy, and I get it promptly, and I can usually copy and paste it as well. If everyone else worked that way, it would be great!!

The head of the Spiritual Life Committee, Sondra, did the same thing. She gave me the information for the year on our book club. But I have hounded people like crazy. Now, we are just beginning to get some place. However, several pages have been dropped because there was no information, e.g. Christian education, UMW, and the woman in charge of Church and Society wanted me to put information up which does not gibe with the policies of the church. I didn't put it up. I went to the Book of Discipline (terrible name for a book!), and I put up the information that the book said about the topic. The minister was delighted and said he wished that more people would at least look at the book.

Every church is different as are all web site editors. I have no problem chasing people down by phone if necessary...and I have. I don't like to, but I want the information to be correct. In other words, I bug them to death. One day I hope that people will see the light and realize that if they would just get the information to me, I wouldn't call them at all. However, I also have a man who calls and tells me that there is this terrific program that we will be doing, has the kit, but still can't get it together....but he keeps me informed. :D

Carol

[Faithhb_lutheran]

I have one other person working on our website with me. THe youth leader at our church. He's paid staff and thus the website would keep going but no progress would ever be made as he can barely keep up with the work he has. If he and I left then the website would die.

[flutem3]

Hi, Kyle,

I hear what you are saying. We have our respective websites high on our priority lists. However, we seem to be about the only ones who do.

I have not figured how to increase interest in the membership in general. They will certainly use Amazon and E-bay for consumer products.

Now, what we have to discover is what the same people need in terms of spiritual "products." I would think that what is offered is plenty...salvation. But that does not seem to be enough. If anyone ever figures out the answer to this, I would certainly like to know.

I know that the sites I return to time after time offer me something that I think I need in one way or another. We have to figure out how to do that with church websites and church ministry. I am beginning to think more and more that the two, church website and church ministry, are very different from one another in their approach to the world-at-large.

Carol

[Faithhb_lutheran]

Carol,

are you talking about a church's website vs. it's web ministry or ministry in the church as a whole?

[flutem3]

Hi, Kyle,

When I began doing the church website, I thought solely in the term, church website.

However as time has gone on, I can see that there is an entire ministry available to us to become involved in. What I was trying to say was that, at least with my skill level right now, I am not able to accomplish both on one website.

I would need one website for church stuff. I would need a second website for ministry because the approach is much different as I see it. For example, on the church website the terminology can be whatever your church uses.

For a ministry website, I would stay away from the kinds of words when immediately turn people off. I think web ministry is a difficult task. I have given it a lot of thought and have not come up with a useable idea, but I am still thinking about it...and especially praying about it. There has to be a way to reach the people who do not go to church. That reminds me. I do not like the word, unchurched, at all. Nor do I like the term, spending units. We are talking about people here. Unchurched has a derogatory or put-down sound in my ears...or superior to inferior...sound so I won't use the term at all. In fact, I refuse to use it. And if I hear others us it or spending units, I have a tantrum!! :D

Carol

[Faithhb_lutheran]

Balancing a web ministry is hard but the current influx of CMS packages are making it easier. I know this is heresy for the die hard coders and accessability guys around but a CMS can do a lot of the things that are more important then perfect web design. They can allow church workers to network and become more effective, while at the same time making communications with the church body more efficient, and having a warm opening enviroment for visitors. This is why in my opinion custom packages aren't good stewardship.