Website Design 101

[flutem3]

Hi, to one and all,

During the next year, more or less, I am going to be redesigning our church website. I have read lots of material now about websites and have looked at many. (not so many as David, however)

However, I still do not have a good handle on the basic criteria for an up-to-date website. I know, for example, that some fonts are considered "out," but I do not know which ones are "in" and display on most computers.

I know that buttons are "out" for some reason and that text links are preferred in this day and age. I understand that from the standpoint of a reader for a blind person, but is there any other reason?

In other words, would you experienced people kindly put your collective heads together and give me your best advice? And perhaps I would especially treasure those experience from not so experienced people who have stumbled about as I have. I have read the 60 tips.

I have a specific question. How do you go about designing your websites and setting them up? Do you design pages on paper first, for example? Or do you design as you go?

I know that I do a few things right: church address, contact, etc. are easily found. Worship services are evident. I have a consistent design whether anyone likes it or not. But I know there are areas which need much improvement.

Thanks to one and all!

Carol

[mrbelfry]

Hi Carol

Great question! AFAIK the only reason buttons are out is to do with fashion (there is the screen reader problem but fashion is the main reason). In terms of fonts arial and verdana are the most prominent and professional (stay away from comic sans!).

I guess the right design process is the one that works for you. What are you comfortable with and what gives you best results. I adopt a few different techniques that have chnaged slightly over the years.

I always used to do a really basic design on paper (see attached for example - this isn't a real life example just something I quickly threw together) of where I wanted elements to be on the page. I did it this way for years and then spent a long time playing with the stylesheet to try and decide on colours and fonts etc.

I started redesigning my church site a while ago and this time I decided to do something different. I used paintshop pro to do a 'mock-up' of the site (see attached). I found it quicker to do this than to mess around with style sheets to get a look and design that I liked.

Once I had that to work to I again quickly designed a few pages of the site in HTML and then asked around on forums like this one for people to give me their opinion on colours, fonts etc. I took the advice I wanted to take and ignored the advice I didn't. You have to remain open to suggestion but also remember it is your design! If you compare the mocked up design to the one at new.lighthousecc.co.uk you will see the subtle differences

Because I more or less work on my own and I want to make sure that I am accountable for the decisions I make I started a blog (www.xanga.com/mrbelfry) to document the decisions I made and why I'd made them. Unfortunately blog fever overtook me and now I write about nothing.

I feel it is really important for solo webmasters (or even a team) to be able to say why they have made certain design or content decisions. A feature (like swirling java images from a few years ago) might look cool but can you justify its inclusion on the site. It is really important to make sure you have a clearly designed set of goals for what you want to achieve (see question of the week) on a real practical level like I want people to be able to easily see our service times (so many goals are so airy that you have no way of measuring success). You'll probably need to speak to the church leaders about what they want and what you want!

Well thats my tuppence worth

[bcope]

I use (and recommend) a four-step process for building a new website:
1. Establish Goals & Objectives
2. Plan for Development
3. Organize Content
4. Create a Finished Product

First, before anything is drawn on paper or created on the computer, you need to have clearly established GOALS AND OBJECTIVES. Why do you want a website? What do you hope to accomplish by having a website? What are the overall goals you intend to reach with this site? Who is your target audience? Etc. By answering these questions early on, you can later justify certain decisions you make in the design process, as well as avoid having to design and re-design your site over and over again.

Second, you need to PLAN FOR DEVELOPMENT. This is where you put pencil to paper (so to speak) and actually begin designing your site. I recommend creating a detailed site map, showing exactly what pages need to be created and how they fit into the overall design. For example, your site may contain four "sections" (Home Page, Who We Are, Pastor's Corner, Calendar of Events), but each of these sections may have "sub-pages" within them (i.e., "Who We Are" includes information about Vision & Mission, History of the Church, Photo Gallery, and a Member Section). You need to know up front how many pages your site will have and how those pages will be linked together. There are various types of navigation options available, but which one you use will depend largely upon how many pages you have and how they are organized within your site. At this stage, once you have a site map, you can either sketch out your design on paper, OR begin creating a site mockup using Adobe Photoshop (or Paint Shop Pro, or whatever graphics program you prefer). I usually browse the web to get layout ideas and find the sites that I really like, and then use those sites for inspiration to create my own design.

Third, you need to ORGANIZE YOUR CONTENT. This involves collecting all of your photos, images, and other graphics into one place, as well as making a list of what content you still need to obtain. I recommend putting everything into one folder on your computer and creating sub-folders for specific types of content. For example, I create a new folder called "XYZ Church Website" and then create sub-folders within that folder, such as "images" and "doc" and "psd". The "images" folder will contain all of the images used in my site. The "doc" folder may contain Word documents that I can copy and paste from later. The "psd" folder would contain Photoshop documents, i.e., the original Photoshop files used in creating my site.

Finally, you CREATE A FINISHED PRODUCT. This is where you actually start building your website. I recommend using Dreamweaver to build and manage websites. I like Dreamweaver because it allows you to build your pages "visually" (i.e., without having to know HTML code), but it also allows you to "look under the hood" when necessary and tweak the code used in your site. Test your site in as many different browsers as possible and using as many different connection speeds as you can to get an idea of how your pages look in different browsers, and also how quickly they load. Don't just assume that because your site looks fine on your computer, that it will display correctly in all browsers.

Lastly, once the site is created, this is where SITE MAINTENANCE begins. As you know, not only do visitors to your site need a reason to stay, but they also need a reason to come back. (This is why having a well-defined set of goals and objectives is so important--how will you measure your results unless you know what your goals were to begin with?) Give your site visitors an opportunity to provide feedback about the site. Include fresh content at least on a monthly basis. Change out the images used on your site periodically. Keep the site current (and try to avoid using the outdated "This site last updated on . . ." especially if you don't update your site that often).

The web design process is a cycle. That is, it needs to be revisited over and over again. Once a site is created, that doesn't mean it should never change. Web technology changes, information changes, and so should your site!

[David Gillaspey]

I know, for example, that some fonts are considered "out," but I do not know which ones are "in" and display on most computers.

I know that buttons are "out" for some reason and that text links are preferred in this day and age. I understand that from the standpoint of a reader for a blind person, but is there any other reason?Hi Carol,

The question of which font to use is not a question of what's "in" and what's "out". Unless you use Macromedia Flash (probably not the case for you), you'll want to use a font that you can be sure is on the user's computer (whether they are using a PC or a Mac). That works out to be Times, Arial, Courier, Verdana, George, Tahoma and a few others. You'll also want to use a font that, furthermore, promotes readability.

Here are links to research about which are the best fonts to use:

http://psychology.wichita.edu/optimalweb/text.htm
http://www.newsletterwriter.biz/nss/typeface.shtml

The latter article says the winners are Verdana, Arial, Georgia.

As for buttons, it is true, as mrbelfry states, that they are out of style. Accessibility is one reason ? the screen readers that blind people use can't read the "text" of a button. The second reason is download speed. Text links download almost immediately. Graphic images such as buttons take a little longer.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[flutem3]

David wrote:

<<That works out to be Times, Arial, Courier, Verdana, George, Tahoma and a few others. You'll also want to use a font that, furthermore, promotes readability. >>

Hi, David,

Thanks for the information and the resources regarding fonts. I put readability at the top of my list. However, I know if other computers don't use that particular font, I have defeated my purpose. I use Helvetica which I seldom see mentioned.

Regarding a font's being "out of date": I am certain that I read some place that certain fonts make a website look "dated." However, I don't know what those fonts are or whether it matters.

Thanks to one and all for all of your input on various topics. One of these days I may be a tiny,lower case computer guru. I will not ever be a major one because I don't know HTML and probably won't take the time to learn. However, I am learning how to use this stuff you provide. :D

Carol

[Faithhb_lutheran]

Carol,

as far as fonts looking dated you are probaly talking about monospaced fonts which almost nobody uses anymore. Also Helvitica will render as Arial under IE6 and Firefox i'm not sure about safari or any of the others. I would consider picking up one of the many HTML reference books. they usually have a chapter on set up and pre design. also they are great for explaining just the elements that you wnat to use.

[Greiggy]

Hi Carol,

A bit like mrbelfry I do very rough roughs and then work them up in Dreamweaver using mainly layers and some tables.

A lot of pages are designed to be easy to add or change quickly (we have thought about content management but think the results look worse than what we have).

I think there are basic questions that need to be established:

WHO are you wanting to reach? (unchurched people are not interested in churchy stuff)

WHAT are you wanting to communicate? Is your site a shop window or are you taking people into the store? (many church websites are static and advertise the many acres of facility and the great programme, staff list etc -- another approach is to offer people continual new content. The design philosophy will be different in each case).

I have a viewpoint that not everyone will agree with but I think it's worth sharing as it bears on your question.

I feel that our commission as Church is to go into the world and make disciples. To apply that philosophy (command?) to a website means that it must aim to reach unchurched people "in the world" where they are and give them something of value to them.

So for me, the static, self-promoting shop window approach is not a direction I can legitimately take. I can't imagine Jesus going for some of the over-designed and 'perfect-in-every-detail' offerings out there, because for me He is down to earth and somewhat "earthy" -- but definitely approachable. And He has a message for the most ordinary and needy people around.

Sorry to preach a bit but I do feel that the philosophy behind the site is crucial. Yours may not be the same as mine and that's OK. My advice is, just be really clear about what it is.

We are trying to change direction which is harder work than getting the direction right in the first place!

Our small English church website is really ordinary and quite rough around the edges but gets a lot of unique visits. We think this is because the content changes. You can see the "changing direction" going on and probably avoid our mistakes!

www.shinfield-baptist.org.uk

[flutem3]

Greiggy wrote:

I feel that our commission as Church is to go into the world and make disciples. To apply that philosophy (command?) to a website means that it must aim to reach unchurched people "in the world" where they are and give them something of value to them.

Hi, Greiggy,

I agree with what you are saying. When I started our church website, I had two goals:

1. Provide information for people who were looking for a church in the area

2. Provide information and resources for the congregation

At the time I did not consider outreach in the same way which I am now thinking about it. We do need to reach those who have not had the advantage of the teaching we have had. And I know that goals are essential.

Since I am in the very beginning of this process, I just have a vague notion of what needs to be done. However, I have not yet been able to be specific about the goals. And I do think that two definite goals are enough.

Therefore, I too am searching...for a way to reach out in a manner that will be acceptable to many people for at least long enough to tell the story. If the website doesn't get that far, it won't be effective. The overriding goal, of course, is to introduce people to the faith which graces our lives and to have them accept it as well. That is a tall order for a website!!

Carol

[flutem3]

Hello to one and all,

I am looking for some information which I am unable to find. So here I am. I would like to find the answers to the following questions:

1. What were the occupations of all of the apostles?

2. What were the occupations of the men who wrote the Old Testament?

I have searched all over trying to find the answers. I probably am not asking the question correctly. At one time many moons ago, I knew this information, but my old noggin seems to have glitched. I am unable to remember them. The reason I want the information is simple: to illustrate that God speaks through all kinds of people.

Re: Old Testament - I know that not all of the occupations were given of those who wrote the books but quite a number were...at least in general categories.

Thank you very much for your help.

Carol

PS If somebody knows how to search for that kind of information, I would like to know how to do that as well.

[GeoffA]

Hi Carol,

WHO are you wanting to reach? (unchurched people are not interested in churchy stuff)
:
:
I feel that our commission as Church is to go into the world and make disciples. To apply that philosophy (command?) to a website means that it must aim to reach unchurched people "in the world" where they are and give them something of value to them.

So for me, the static, self-promoting shop window approach is not a direction I can legitimately take. I can't imagine Jesus going for some of the over-designed and 'perfect-in-every-detail' offerings out there, because for me He is down to earth and somewhat "earthy" -- but definitely approachable. And He has a message for the most ordinary and needy people around.


I strongly agree with this - from another small english church. We're currently doing a redesign from an 'in church people' type site currently at [www.shorehambaptist.co.uk (http://www.shorehambaptist.co.uk)] to a much more 'non-church people' design - BTW any comments welcome.

As to designing my sites, I start with pencil and paper to get some rough ideas of the home page layout and also the site architecture [main pages]. Obviously the architecture partially drives the layout considerations. The architecture is important, and I try to think a lot about this - especially what might be wanted in the future, and to allow for that [even if some sections not initially created].

The layout I then do with HTML & CSS in a text editor. I start by writing the major sections [headings with a bit of content] in the HTML - so initially this will look more like a structured word document than a web site. I then add CSS to position the major sections where i want them. Then I will add CSS to control the formating [colours/font details and more lower level content]. This tends to be a very iterative process for me, as sometimes getting this far makes me think of some significant section that needs to be added. Alternatively some major section may be demoted or moved to a subsidary page.

Then having established the site style, i reuse this [maybe with modifications] on the child pages.

all in all a slightly messy process!

Geoff

[flutem3]

"WHO are you wanting to reach? (unchurched people are not interested in churchy stuff)"

Hi,

The reason I wanted the occupations, some of which I have, is to make the point to a non-believer, barely believer, or severe back slider that the Bible is for everyone...and written by people across the board. It was not written by academicians, for example. I was not going to present it full blown...just as part of an example.

By the way, I, personally, have decided to stop using the term "unchurched." The more I have heard it, the more I dislike it (personally). I think it is super negative and demeaning somehow although we don't mean that when we say it. I would not like someone to refer to me as "unchurched." There must be a better term that we can use...even if it is longer and more bulky like "people who don't attend church." I think non-believer is good for those who don't.

I work out what I am going to do on a website on paper too. I am much more used to paper and pen than I am with a computer which is why I did it in the first place. And as someone who has written a number of papers, I outline text before I write it.

And I think that we need to reach people where they are which is why I am doing a second website. I could not build a half-way decent outreach site into what I have so I am building a site specifically for outreach. I think I mentioned this before. I am not positive though. The site is more or less Christianity 001, more or less. It is the most difficult and challenge piece of writing I have ever done in my life. And I love it. :D

[cwgraves]

1. Provide information for people who were looking for a church in the area
2. Provide information and resources for the congregationLet's not forget the person seeking answers and have no intention of attending our church. They may be halfway across the globe.

A web ministry is a 24 hour 7 days a week evangelistic tool. We need to give the "persons who don't attend church" (thanks Carol), a desire to come to the site and stay.

A seperate link for church members (and perhaps a completely seperate site), is beneficial. Personally, I stick to a single site, but have a way for members to login and get different content.

In my experience, at least until we can get the congregations motivated, the church members either don't have time to visit the site very often, or don't have computers or some other reason. The youth group will visit more often because they are more used to computers. We have to give them more than just static information. I like to add private messaging and online chat rooms (moderated) that are used to discuss things.

The best success I've seen is when you add LOTS of different content modules to a site to give each type of person something to participate in.
I have also had success by using the website to schedule meetings and communicate with board members, department heads, staff pastors, etc... Since you have a "special group", you can declare, "The meeting information is on the website." If they start to come to the website for a certain reason, they will get used to using it...

[flutem3]

Curtis wrote:

"Let's not forget the person seeking answers and have no intention of attending our church. They may be halfway across the globe."

Hi, Curtis,

I know that, and I know it now more than when I started to build the website. Since I knew nothing, I wanted two clear cut goals to work with. I didn't think I could manage more. There actually is a tertiary goal and that is that people can easily find what they are looking for. I also didn't want to embarrass God, the ministers, the congregation, or myself. Actually, I think God has probably laughed.

I have much to learn. I know that. When I first started working with the website, I still had no total realization of the world-wide aspects of this kind of endeavor...none. I have discovered that as I have muddled along. I just keep muddling and learning. One day I hope to have something decent on the website. In the meantime, I keep trying the best I can.

Many of you on this forum have years of experience with computering, designing, programming, and the like. It would be wonderful to have that kind of experience and knowledge, but I don't. But I have more than I did so I am headed in the right direction.

I understand about the youth as well. They are just beginning to come back to the church. There were hardly any left just a year ago. It was just recently announced that the youth group will begin meeting once a month on a regular basis. When I was that age, we met weekly on Sunday evening. The youth page is well travelled. The kids, if nothing else, enjoy the CD reviews which come from www.umc.org. And they come in twice a month.

We also are just beginning to get children back into Sunday School. We have 61 now. We were down to about 20. And the membership of the church is 519. Our church has been in a black hole for some time. It is just now beginning to thrive again.

I love this church. My grandfather was the minister here from 1937-1941, and he baptized me while he was the pastor. I have grown up with the church, have rebelled against it, loved it, been disappointed in it, and continue to love it for it is my church and will be to my dying day. My attachment is great so I want to do the best I can for it. But my best and your best are two very different things. I cannot change that. I just have to keep plugging along and doing the best I know how at any given time.

Carol

PS There is one other thing I will mention to everyone who is signed up to this topic. How many of you have spent any time on our church website to see what is actually there? Since I have very good site statistics, I can tell that a few of you have ambled in but not for any length of time. Maybe by seeing what I do have, you would be better able to let me know what else I NEED to have to make it more effective. :D Might be!!

[cwgraves]

...my best and your best are two very different things. I cannot change that. I just have to keep plugging along and doing the best I know how at any given time... Carol,

Many of us have told you not to cut yourself short! You are doing a good job. I have been to your site and there is a LOT of information on the site.

You are right in that you and I are at different levels in our technical expertise and that is okay. However, any successful business person (and pastor), will tell you that they can't be experts at everything. They have to learn how to take advantage of the skills of others.

When my car breaks down, I am the first one to drive it to the shop. I just can't do anything other than simple things. I can change the brakes, change the oil, etc... My level of expertise in automotive repair is less than the mechanic I take my car to. I do the things I can do and I let him do the things I can't do.

Are you starting to get the idea? Do the things you can do and let someone with more experience and training do the things you can't do.

Oftentimes, it is difficult for us to accept the help of others because I either want to do it myself, or for some other reason. The reason is different for each of us. In my case, sometimes the Lord reminds me that it is pride getting in the way. "I'm a man. I should be able to fix the car. My dad used to do it. Why can't I?" Those are some of my thoughts.
Maybe by seeing what I do have, you would be better able to let me know what else I NEED to have to make it more effective.You have a lot of good information. Content is more important than layout. However, you have 3-5 seconds to grab a persons attention. I call it the "WOW" factor. If a person can't sit down and say, "WOW" after your site comes up, then we haven't succeeded.

Sit down and look at all of the sites that you can. Go to highly successful business sites as well as many of the sites in the database that David has put together (thanks, David). You can look at a site and tell if it has the "WOW" factor. Some sites are too busy. Some sites have too much eye candy. You need to find a balance between graphics and content.

I've said this before (and have felt somewhat chastised over it), but I am willing to help you design a professional looking site. Just say the word.

[flutem3]

Curtis wrote:

"I call it the "WOW" factor. If a person can't sit down and say, "WOW" after your site comes up, then we haven't succeeded."

Hi, Curtis,

Don't feel chastised!! I just get frustrated sometimes. And I do understand about the car...oh, do I understand about the car.

Curtis, I have never yet seen a website that had a WOW factor...not in the
2 3/4 years I have been using a computer. I take that back, I say, "WOW," when there is photosensitive material, and I have to leave the site. Some websites I like more than others, but it seems to me that the majority are too busy.

And, Curtis, you are right. I do tend to cut myself short sometimes. But I have a group of people here to help me get my head back on straight. I appreciate that very much. And regarding pride, YEEKS. The good Lord above hits me over the head with a 2 x 4 from time to time. And you are right; it is difficult sometimes to ask for help. Right now, I have so many people offering that I don't know what to do!! They are world wide. Now, that is something that not so long ago we (I) could not imagine happening. But it is wonderful.

Carol

[mickmel]

This is a great thread! I'd like to comment on one thing I think is missing, though.

I know that buttons are "out" for some reason and that text links are preferred in this day and age. I understand that from the standpoint of a reader for a blind person, but is there any other reason?
Search engines! (for the sake of consistency, let's just say "Google", since they drive more traffic than any other)

When someone searches for a phrase in Google, there are a number of things on our site that will help (or hurt) your chances for coming up near the the top of the results. One of the big ones is the number of links coming into a given page on our your site (thus showing Google how "popular" you are) and the text used in those links. If I have a text link that says "Youth Ministry" that goes to a page called "youthministry.htm" that has "Youth Ministry" in the title bar and in the "h1" tag at the top of the page, I should do pretty well for that term. Of course, thousands of sites already do that, but you still might rank pretty well in your hometown.

Don't underestimate the power of the search engines. Many people, when they're new to a town, will run a few Google searches to find a church to visit. If you don't show up near the top, they don't show up at your door. It's still a relatively small percentage of people, but it's growing. Our church site had about 1500 visitors this month from Google searches, and that number has been slowly climbing.

Anyhow, that's my main reason for using text links wherever I can. I hope that information was helpful to you.

[flutem3]

Mickey wrote:

"Anyhow, that's my main reason for using text links wherever I can. I hope that information was helpful to you"

Hi, again,

That makes sense to me. Bit by bit I am switching to text links. Right now, some pages have buttons and some have text, but eventually I will have them all changed.

I still like the buttons. :-) However, I like people coming to the site more!!

Carol

[David Gillaspey]

Don't underestimate the power of the search engines. Many people, when they're new to a town, will run a few Google searches to find a church to visit. If you don't show up near the top, they don't show up at your door. Hi Mickey,

I agree with everything you've said. Thanks for your contribution.

But allow me to comment further. (My comments are directed to everyone, not just you.) I wonder why it is that so few churches (as far as I can tell) go beyond search engine positioning and sign up for Google AdWords? Google AdWords are the ads (up to eight per page of search results) that appear in the righthand column of Google search results. For example, search for "xdata" (no quotes) in Google. You'll see my ad right on top. ("xdata" is a programming language for dynamic publishing of data in layout programs.)

AdWords clients bid against other clients for positioning of these ads. What clients are bidding on are keywords or phrases (used in searches). When a Google user searches for "spirituality," for example, the company or organization that has offered the highest bid for that particular keyword gets the #1 spot on the first page of the search results. If a company bids less, its ad appears lower on the first page, or the ad might not appear at all on the first page of search results and instead be on the second or third page. (While bids determine the position of ads, AdWord clients don't actually pay til a user clicks through or follows the link to the company or church's website.) Bids start at 5 or 10 cents per click-through and go up to $3 or more per click-through.

AdWord campaigns can be geographically focused (how, I don't know), which is why I think AdWords could be a very cost-effective way for a church to promote itself. A year ago, I wrote this explanation about how to sign up for Google AdWords

http://www.greatchurchwebsites.org/get_listed_adwords.php

(so might be a bit dated).

Yahoo/Overture at the time only displayed three ads, at the top of the page, which meant only the three highest bidders for a keyword got advertising. I see the Yahoo/Overture now has ads at the top of the page, bottom of the page and in the righthand column.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[David Gillaspey]

By the way, I, personally, have decided to stop using the term "unchurched." The more I have heard it, the more I dislike it (personally). I think it is super negative and demeaning somehow although we don't mean that when we say it.I use the term all the time; however, you may be right in cautioning us to not use it.

"Unchurched" actually can have two meanings: 1) Grew up in church, but don't attend now. 2) Never grew up in church and don't attend now. The difference is crucial.

I grew up in Iowa and have lived and worked in Missouri, Tennessee, and Florida. In that part of the country, I think, you can safely assume most people have some experience with churchgoing: either they themselves were dragged to church as kids, or they have family members or friends or co-workers who attend church.

I live in the Pacific Northwest now (Portland). Lots of people out here have no experience whatsoever with churchgoing. They weren't dragged to church as kids because their parents didn't go to church. Their parents didn't go to church because their parents' parents didn't go to church. Etc.

I've worked in mostly secular jobs since moving here. I don't know a single person, among the co-workers I knew at those secular jobs, who ever expressed or showed even the slightest interest in the Bible. That's why for me, for example, putting a Bible-search feature (the subject of a thread elsewhere on this forum) on a church website has no particular value. I'd be trying to answer a question the secular people I know simply aren't asking.

So my perspective as to what is important to include on a church website reflects the kind of people among which I live and work.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Website

[flutem3]

David wrote:

"I wonder why it is that so few churches (as far as I can tell) go beyond search engine positioning and sign up for Google AdWords"

Hi, David,

They don't want to spend the money. Not one church person in this town with whom I have spoken puts nearly the emphasis that we do (those on the forum) on the value of a church website...not even close.

There may be some churches which do, but I have yet to hear of them. Of course, since I have not been at it that long, maybe my not hearing of them isn't too surprising. But I bring church websites up to all kinds of people from all over the place. Usually they say, "That's nice," in reference to having a church website. And the other churches in our town are not building websites like crazy. There are only five.

I wish they understood just how much the word of God could be spread through the www.

Re: unchurched - It can also mean excommunicated or kicked out. I just don't like the sound of the word.

The book is great!! Thanks again.

Carol

[GeoffA]

When someone searches for a phrase in Google, there are a number of things on our site that will help (or hurt) your chances for coming up near the the top of the results. One of the big ones is the number of links coming into a given page on our your site (thus showing Google how "popular" you are) and the text used in those links. If I have a text link that says "Youth Ministry" that goes to a page called "youthministry.htm" that has "Youth Ministry" in the title bar and in the "h1" tag at the top of the page, I should do pretty well for that term. Of course, thousands of sites already do that, but you still might rank pretty well in your hometown.


A quick question for you on this optimisation - in the title, is it better to have 'Youth Ministry' or 'XYZ Church Youth Ministry'. i.e. does the 'XYZ Church' dilute the effect of the 'Youth Ministry'.

Any other thoughts are welcome!

Geoff

[flutem3]

Geoff wrote:

"A quick question for you on this optimization - in the title, is it better to have 'Youth Ministry' or 'XYZ Church Youth Ministry'. i.e. does the 'XYZ Church' dilute the effect of the 'Youth Ministry'. "

Hi, Geoff,

That is a terrific question. I don't know the answer. However, if I were making an outline, it would be:

I. Youth Ministry
A. United Methodist Church
B. Christ United Methodist
C. Church of Our Savior Methodist Church

etc. If Google or other search engines work in a similar fashion, then I would say that XYZ would dilute Youth Ministry. Personal opinion based on how my brain works. :rolleyes:

Carol
PS The stuff above is supposed to be lined up properly like an outline, but I couldn't get it to do that. Therefore, the form is incorrect. Sorry about that.
Somebody please tell me how to do that if you would.

By the way, how do you get numbers following 9 to line up:

9.
10.
11. etc. They won't line up properly or they stick out to the right instead of to the left which looks strange to me. Then the stuff following the numbers doesn't line up either. Bah! and Phooey! :confused:

[Greiggy]

Hello to one and all,

I am looking for some information which I am unable to find. So here I am. I would like to find the answers to the following questions:

1. What were the occupations of all of the apostles?

2. What were the occupations of the men who wrote the Old Testament?

I have searched all over trying to find the answers.


Hi Carol,

Would be a bit of a long answer so forgive me for putting the ball back in your court -- check out any Bible dictionary (IVP, Eerdmans etc -- I particularly like the one by Lawrence Richards -- think it might be pub. by Revell in the USA). You probably have some of these in the church library. Pastoral staff defintely will! Will be a better result for you if you can read these up for yourself.

[mickmel]

I wonder why it is that so few churches (as far as I can tell) go beyond search engine positioning and sign up for Google AdWords?
We've done a few ads on there, but the focus has been on getting our free results to shine as brightly as possible.

For a while (and I think they're still offering it), if you signed up for Google Local (http://local.google.com/), you'd get a $25 AdWords credit. Not only do you get to make sure your information is 100% accurate, but you get the $25 credit as well!

A quick question for you on this optimisation - in the title, is it better to have 'Youth Ministry' or 'XYZ Church Youth Ministry'. i.e. does the 'XYZ Church' dilute the effect of the 'Youth Ministry'.
The official answer is - no one knows for sure. Google keeps a tight lid on exactly how things work. However, I would say that the more words you include up there, the more diluted the value of each one becomes.

That being said, I keep our title space pretty full. Every page says "Mt. Bethel United Methodist Church - Marietta, Georgia - Ministry Area". There were a few small decisions in there that it pays to be consistent on.

First, choose whether you're going to spell out the name of your state or abbreviate it. I'm sure people search both ways, so it probably doesn't matter which way you do it. However, if you mix and match, then you won't rank well for either. Pick one and stick to it.

The same goes for city. We're really close to Atlanta, so it would be nice to rank well for "Atlanta" searches. However, our church is actually in Marietta so I've decided to always use "Marietta" and simply give up on the the "Atlanta" terms. I figure that even if I went all "Atlanta", we'd have a lot of competition for good terms. With "Marietta", we're at (or very near) the top of the list for many common terms.

[flutem3]

Geiggy wrote:

"Would be a bit of a long answer so forgive me for putting the ball back in your court -- check out any Bible dictionary (IVP, Eerdmans etc -- I particularly like the one by Lawrence Richards "

Hi,

I have Erdmanns et. al. and haven't found the answers to the occupation question. And I have been all over the internet as well...not everywhere, of course. I have spent hours looking for the answers. Actually, it doesn't really matter. I just wanted to know...especially since I was having so much trouble.

I just though maybe somebody here could save me some time. I know there are not definitive answers for many of the books. Did David really write the Psalms and many other questions of that nature? Did Moses write the first five books? How could he write about his own death and civilizations which didn't exist at the time? I just want a general sense of the extent of occupations which I can use as an example. I would not have asked the question here if I had not already put in considerable time trying to find out. That is not really the purpose of the forum. I just thought somebody might have a handle on it because of something he/she had done. That's all.

I love doing research, but there comes a time in some instances that the answer does not warrant more time and energy expenditure. With me I have the time, but I don't have the energy.

But I still would like to know. I am particularly curious about Judas Iscariot. I don't know why, I just am. :D And I don't need a long answer. A shortened one will do fine. I already have found a number of occupations, but I know there are lots more.

Carol

[flutem3]

I wrote:

"But I still would like to know. I am particularly curious about Judas Iscariot."

Hi, all,

I did not mean that I did not find information about Judas. I did and lots of it. And I found a zillion theories about why he did what he did eg. free will vs. predestination; he and Jesus both knew that he was going to do what he did and that dipping the bread told the other apostles, etc.

What I found out about occupation was that he was a thief. But then he was entrusted with everyone else's money. I just wondered if anyone know of any other kind of thing that Judas did. For some reason in my mind...and maybe it has to do with movies, I don't know...I was under the impression that he was well educated. But I have not found anything to support that...maybe because he handled the money.

Thanks for any enlightenment that anyone can provide.

Carol

[David Gillaspey]

Hello to one and all,

I am looking for some information which I am unable to find. So here I am. I would like to find the answers to the following questions:

1. What were the occupations of all of the apostles?

2. What were the occupations of the men who wrote the Old Testament?
Hi Carol,

I don't know how far along you are in getting the answers to your questions.

I'm swamped at the moment writing some papers for a seminary class. After this week, though, I'll have time to research a thick book I own, Who's Who in the Bible, from which I probably can obtain the answers to your question.

The question of who actually wrote the books of the Bible is not always an easy one to address though (much less what were their occupations). For example, Bible scholars believe two or three people wrote Isaiah (based on some dramatic changes in style in the book). Matthew the Apostle (and former tax collector) is traditionally considered the writer of the gospel that bears his name, but some Bible scholars believe the book was actually written by a unknown Christian living in Antioch of Syria.

You get the idea.

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[flutem3]

Hi to one and all,

I had asked if anyone knew the occupations of those who had written the Bible. I also wrote to the website, www.backtothebible.com. I received the following response from a man named Keith Richardson. He said it took him a long time because he also thought the information was easy to find. Therefore, I decided to share the wealth in case any of you would ever need the information. The results he found are:

1. The Apostles Professions

Matthew (Levi) -- Tax Collector
Andrew -- Fisherman
Simon Peter -- Fisherman
James -- Fisherman
John -- Fisherman
Phillip -- unknown
Bartholemew/Nathanael -- unknown
Jude/Thaddaeus -- Carpenter
Thomas -- unknown
Simon, the Zealot -- Revolutionary
James, son of Alphaeus -- unknown
Judas Iscariot -- Possibly a Revolutionary

Apostles who were not
Paul -- Tentmaker
James -- Carpenter
Luke -- Physician
John Mark -- unknown
Barnabas -- Levite

2. OT Writer's Professions

Moses -- Military leader, shepherd
Joshua -- Military leader
Ezra -- Priest, Scribe
Nehemiah -- Soldier, Statesman, Prince
Mordecai (Esther) -- Political leader
David -- Shepherd, soldier
Solomon -- King
Ezekiel -- Priest
Daniel -- Seer, Political leader
Hosea -- unknown
Joel -- Shepherd
Amos -- Shepherd
Obadiah -- unknown
Jonah -- unknown
Micah-- Farmer
Nahum -- unknown
Habbakkuk -- Temple singer
Zephaniah -- Member of Judean royal family
Haggai -- unknown
Zechariah -- Priest
Malachi -- Helper to Nehemiah

Carol

[David Gillaspey]

Hi Carol,

Thanks for posting this information!

Sincerely,

David Gillaspey
President
Great Church Websites

[flutem3]

Hi, David,

You are welcome! I figured the guy put in so much time finding the information that it needed to be shared. :D

Carol

[HansR]

I have a specific question. How do you go about designing your websites and setting them up? Do you design pages on paper first, for example? Or do you design as you go?
Carol

Hi flutem3,

Great question. Please know I have only skimmed the responses, if this was addressed previously, please forgive me.

I always start with paper and pencil and my sketches, although extremely rough, help put the basic blocks in place. Focusing on site structure, I think, is often overlooked. A site, especially church sites, may start out OK, but long before the redesign comes, you find catacombs of buried pages five and six clicks in. Also, get input from several individuals familiar with how the church, and its attendees think. A short survey distributed in your Sunday morning worship folder/bulletin may bring some useful info to light.

Second, strive for the site to reflect the nature of the church. If you attend a conservative church, I think the site should be formal. If you worship at a hip church, then a viewer should get a feel for its style simply in the layout of the site.

Lastly, if you haven't already, learn CSS. It is so much better than working with tables. http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_reference.asp (http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_reference.asp) is a great place to start.

Blessings!

[rePete]

Back to the original question if I may:

While planning my current redesign I am using a 3 ring binder with sections for mockups, designs ideas (gleaned from other sites), Content which includes a detailed site map then xhtml and css sections. I did a lot of the preliminary planning in a word processor.

To create a mockup I use these tools:

SnagIt (http://www.techsmith.com/snagit.asp) - allows me to cut out design elements of a website that I like.

Jruler (http://www.spadixbd.com/freetools/jruler.htm) - is an onscreen pixel measurement device to measure elements.

ColorSchemer Colorpix (http://www.colorschemer.com/colorpix_info.php) - an onscreen color code identifier. See a color you like on the screen - measure it.

Photoshop CS2 (http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/main.html) to paste it all together.

Once I get the mockup where I want it, I can start programming.

Here's (http://test.hanratty.org/web2.gif) a recent one that I've since abandoned.

Hope that helps
Pete Hanratty
Columbus, OH